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Daily Telegraph

For those who do not read the non-CP WIGOs there is a new one in WIGO:Blogs which is pretty much culled from our series on Internet Laws. We get a few linkbacks for some of them (but not all, even for those which are RW specific). Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 19:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

4 links in one article ain't bad. If any Telegraph readers come here though they'll probably have adverse reactions. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 19:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point... Tell 'em Telegraph "CRICKET!!!" ^bomination 19:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Who the hell was Rob Pommer? Harmonic evil Hoover! 19:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Cracker? ^bomination 19:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

@toast:If any Telegraph readers come here though they'll probably have adverse reactions - but at least they'll know how to make tea properly. Totnesmartin 20:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Can we have a wikipedia article now? Ace^McWicked 21:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I dare someone with some street cred on WP to suggest that. Harmonic evil Hoover! 21:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing, but remember the guys who were mostly against it (and Poe's Law) were pretty much all over it and had Trent banned for a week or something. I'm liking the comments, that one from "Steve Foley" is either taking it all too seriously (in which case I pity them) or trying to take the piss out of people who take it seriously (and failed, thus I still pity them). Still, some of the other proposals are pretty good. ^bomination 11:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I love the fact Ken is now internationally famous. - π 12:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I let him know on his aSoK talk page. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 12:36, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Aha, he responded. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 11:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

We need to get an article on Skitt’s Law. - π 13:01, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Done. If I knew they were going to do that, I'd have actually coined my own law, I definitely have one formulated. ^bomination 13:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, I think WP's notability guidelines suggest that a site has to be the subject of an article. Still, an article like this clearly shows we're on the right track. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 08:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It probably isn't notable enough. Though, I notice that I really can't find any proper references to this "poetry" one that the guy who shoved it out of the WP article put in. It's certainly not commonly used. A few people in recent months have been like "oh, it's Poe's law about Edgar Allen Poe" but I'm convinced this is because for the last few months WP has topped RW on the Google search, and of course, WP has refused to acknowledge "our" Poe's Law (well, strictly, one of the admins on a power trip and a vendetta against Trent refused to let it in, I'm also partly convinced its the same guy who wandalised the article with the "stupid atheist blogs" comment). ^bomination 08:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

<(UD) I guess most people haven't bothered to revisit this article but I notice that now there are two posts from PJR and one from TK. The PJR ones look genuine but is the TK one a parodist? Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 19:04, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Damnit, I wanted to add my own but the comments system seems to be broken now. Crundy's law: The aggressiveness and unreasonableness of an internet poster is inversely proportional to their grammar and spelling skills. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 12:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The list has made it to Pharyngula now too. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 14:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

If PZ coins his own law we'll have to have it immediately! You know, posterity and all that. ^bomination 14:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Lol: "Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage." Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 21:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

one month down

I moved into my university accommodation four weeks ago today. Fortunately, we all seem to get along and have avoided killing one another so far. As for the following 7 months, only time will tell... SJ ^Debaser 19:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I've already started making plans for extreme revenge pranks. Broccoli 19:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Halloween next weekend. That'll be fun. The one girl in our house (technically there are two, but the other one never hangs out with the us) is one of those scaredy-girls, so freaking her out should be easy but highly entertaining. She'll probably try and strangle me in my sleep however. SJ ^Debaser 19:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, my friend had a kinky girlfriend who used to do that to him as well. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 21:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

That's unsettling. SJ ^Debaser 15:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright backwards?

Ok, I have a question concerning copyright laws that occurred to me when I was considering the name "Alucard" ("Dracula" spelled backwards). Ok, for those of you unfamiliar with the name, it originated in the movie "Son of Dracula" in the 1940s, starring Lon Chaney Jr. as Count Dracula, who used the name as a pseudonymn (if you're curious, the movie itself was somewhat confusing about whether he was merely A Count Dracula, and the son of the original Universal Dracula, or THE Count Dracula in a different continuity. He was simply called "Count Dracula" in the film, and the title seems to either be a holdover from earlier drafts of the script, or the result of some scenes being cut. Production was so rushed during this era either is believable). In the last three decades "Alucard" has shown up in several works as either a traveling name Dracula uses (The Batman vs Dracula and arguably Hellsing), or the name of Dracula's son (Castlevania).

Now, here's my question: The novel Dracula is in the public domain, the movie Son of Dracula is not. Is the name Alucard in the public domain, or do these works have to pay royalties?

I could honestly see it going either way. On the one hand, the movie was the first time the name Alucard was used, but at the same time how could it be copyright infringement if in a Dracula-based work Dracula merely said "I can't use my real name...I'll just reverse it!" and his name reversed just happened to be the same as the name Universal used? Furthermore what if, for some inexplicable reason, someone decided to publish the book Dracula with all the text backwards so people could read it in the mirror (not saying it would be logical, just arguing legality here)? "Alucard" would be printed in the book over and over again because its "Dracula" backwards?

I could maybe see the argument that if a character named "Alucard" was Dracula's son (as in Castlevania) it would be copyright infringement, but then what if the son uses it as a pseudonymn, or its a cousin or nephew?--Mustex 00:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say it's no big deal. In Helsing, the main character is a vampire named Alucard, but is really Dracula. A name is hard to copyright. Two of my past usernames were those of anime characters (Tabris and Nate River). Characters can be copyrighted, but I do not believe names can be.--Thanatos 01:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but I don't think your user names are a very good example, since you weren't deriving a profit from them.--Mustex 01:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

True, but you mentioned both Castlevania and Helsing. They both use the name Alucard, and they make profits. Alucard is a name tied to Dracula, will always be associated with Dracula, but not exclusive to that one movie. Someone might have used the name Alucard before that.--Thanatos 03:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but I was guessing that they might just pay royalties.--76.18.115.64 14:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

And having been on a Star Trek forum (*shudder*) where everyone is fighting over who gets the username Captain Kirk, I can tell you that usernames really can't break copyright very easily. And of course, just mentioning or using something doesn't necessarily violate copyright - for instance, Space Marine is copyrighted by Games Workshop, but it doesn't stop people using the term many many times. They just can't create their own thing and use that name to describe it and then sell it. And I don't think the name Alucard would qualify for copyright, anyway. ^bomination 12:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You can Register a Trade Mark, but that only protects it where there's likely to be confusion: Swan kettles & Swan Matches come to mind. Wasn't there a Mr (or Mrs) MacDonald in Scotland who was sued by (guess who) for calling his caff Macdonald's. Of course there's "To boldly go" which is copyright I understand. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 12:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is. At least I can't find a mention of it being so. ^bomination 13:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I think claiming copyright on a single character name would be tough. (Trademarks are a different matter of course as they uniquely identify a product.) Secondly "Alucard" was simply another name for the character "Dracula" - not a new character anyway. Could I claim copyright on "Nazrat" if I wrote a new Tarzan story? I doubt it.--Bob^{Not Jim} 13:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Fictional characters and other items are an intellectual property and their creator can control use of such in perpetuity. [Warning:the following contains Dr Who geekdom] Terry Nation, for instance, got rich (one the very few tv writers to do so) because he kept hold of his rights to the Daleks. sometimes a show can't reuse a character because the creator charges too much for the right to use it. the was a big stink about the two blokes who created Superman as well, wasn't there?. So in a nutshell, there is copyright on characters. Totnesmartin 14:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Siegel and Shuster, the creators of Superman sold the character to National Periodical Publications (now DC Comics) for what, in retrospect, seems to be a pittance -- the grand sum of one hundred dollars. Remember, though, that was the Depression, and they were teenagers (or early twenties), so, while its nothing compared to what the character became worth, they thought it was a pretty good deal at the time. Flash forward about fifty years to the debut of the first Christopher Reeve Superman movie. Both Siegel and Shuster were getting old, in poor health, and flat broke. One was, in fact, legally blind. They did lots of media interviews that basically boiled down to, "we created this character, we'vo got no money, and there's a major motion picture that's about to make truckloads of money." DC was essentially shamed to putting them on a stipend -- about $20K/year at time (not huge, but not bad for the late Seventies). Its my understanding that DC increased the amount over the years, and they were able to, at least, enjoy retirement. Flash forward again, to the present. Both Siegel and Shuster are gone now, but one of their estates is fighting a legal battle over the rights to some of the other characters he created, most especially Superboy. Results are still pending in that case. Marvel Comics is in a similar battle with the creator of Captain America. MDB 13:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The mostly harmless criteria for sysops

There is a reason we have this criteria for sysops. Someone with technical knowledge and a malicious streak can actually do considerable harm to each other and the wiki with sysops powers. I am not going to go into details about how that might be done so as to not give any ideas. I am not weighing in on the discussion about Marcus one way or another. He has failed to capture my interest, and even if he does have malicious intent I think he lacks the technical knowledge to do anything more then annoying. However, the meme that everything a sysops can do can be easily undone by any other sysops with no lasting effect is not actually true. Hence, why there should be some level of a judgment call made when sysopsing users. tmtoulouse 22:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm not the one who makes any kind of decisions round here. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 22:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok then. We can remove the most dangerous rights (editinterface, edituserjscss, bigdelete) from sysops. That would leave us pretty safe, no? -- Nx / talk 23:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Can we remove ActLikeAFuckingPrick as well? I think MC would probably abuse that one. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 23:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have root password to MC's brain -- Nx / talk 23:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

(ECx2)Then I stand corrected and apologise for spreading said meme, I assumed (based on what we have written in the pages about being a sysop) that it just included patrolling edits, blocking and vandal binning users and locking/moving/deleting pages. If it is the case that sysops can do some serious damage, I think we need to start restricting sysop powers a lot more - and by extension, 'crat powers even further. There are users getting sysop powers within a minuscule number of edits these days, before they've even shown they have a proper interest in the wiki. Whereas about a year ago you almost had some time to get some edits in before getting it. While I absolutely trust Trent and Nx's opinions on how dangerous sysop powers can be if misused, if there really is a problem, then the solution needs to be applied universally, not just as an excuse to stop someone who has got under the skin of a few posters from getting it. ^bomination 23:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I concur, it has been something I have been mulling around for a while. We are relatively safe because it would take someone with above average technical skills (and not just wiki skills but computers and programming in general) to really cause havoc and we haven't exactly drawn the ire of malicious computer programmers sneaking sysops rights on our site. However, the largest security issues can probably be cleaned up a bit and should be. I will discuss it with Nx, any changes shouldn't really effect anyone that I am aware of. tmtoulouse 23:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree (not that that means anything), and even if it did affect us I don't think most of us sysops would mind. I, for one, will not miss any of the powers you mention. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 00:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I assume these changes would be quite "under the hood" as it were, so wouldn't affect our policy of sysopship. However, I have thought of one issue; namely revision-delete. We use this to hide personal info that has been incorrectly uploaded here. So all it takes if someone wants to get some personal details that they suspect are held on RationalWiki is to come here, make 5-6 posts on WIGO:CP saying "look at those morons, lOL!!!" and they'll get sysoped and be able to track it down (another negatively side effect of doing it within a few edits is that well meaning editors have been insulted and left because certain 'crats take the "demotion" joke a bit too far and start telling people to get out of their sight etc. etc.). I know we haven't had any personal info that is particularly useful up here yet but some things have leaked out and as Conservapedia gets more attention, the more likely it'll come under the eyes of the real arseholes out there who will likely try to hi-jack RW for their own purposes - and if Schlafly thinks he's being persecuted by vandals now, he has no idea what can and will happen if he continues to draw attention to himself and piss people off.

As you said a few months ago, we're passing through Dunbar's Number so things may get rocky and we might want to consider restructuring how we give out user rights, or at least put some more official guidelines on the sysopship demotion. ^bomination 10:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added the ability for bureaucrats to hide a revision from sysops too. Although it doesn't show up on recent changes, you can see it here. -- Nx / talk 08:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I defer to Trent and Nx for anything technical. I do stand by my other things I have written about sysop rights here. I think making it easy is the best defense against any malicious intent. When it becomes a chess-like game worth winning on something like CP, you are inviting trouble. When it is like musical chairs with one extra chair, there is no prize. Sysop rights is all about the means and not so much the ends for someone intending malice. --Edgerunner⁷⁶_{...and a hotplate!} 10:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I can assure you all that I don't have the first clue about how I would do any of the scary things you mention. To be fair I am not a vandal, I have never vandalised, and its only the most autocratic and mean spirited of members here who accuse me of being a troll. I don't really care about getting the powers, I asked for a laugh and deliberately provocatively just to see if it would happen. I honestly didn't think it would create a furore, though perhaps I should have known better considering the emotional and hysterical tendencies of the likes of thedictator (Geek with no life/possibly a virgin) and Jeeves (Unrepentant bigot and deviant) 134.226.1.234 13:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Although I totally disprove of name-dropping people and calling them arseholes like that, MC has a point. He is not a vandal and has made no malicious actions towards the wiki as a project or whole - a provocative little turd, yes, but that's mostly the fault of people who let themselves get provoked by it. ^bomination 14:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I just have a minor correction. This is not a furor. Furors would include much more profanity, some all caps posts, perhaps some lulcatz pics and a liberal application of that take a breather template. This is about as melodramatic as some collection of us deciding what to have for lunch. ^Me!Sheesh!_Mine! 14:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Neutering sysops

I took away several rights from sysops:

• Editing the MediaWiki namespace (editinterface). Unfortunately there's no way to distinguish between pages that only allow wikicode and those that allow arbitrary html.
• Editing other users' css/js files. (editusercssjs)
• Deleting pages with more than 2000 revisions. (bigdelete) I don't see why we'd ever want to delete a page that has that much revisions anyway.

Bureaucrats can do all of the above. They also get a big red warning when deleting a page with more than 2000 revisions. The irrational numbers usergroup which I created specifically for Pi has editinterface and bigdelete, so don't go around giving it to random people. Promotions to cratship should take into account these changes. I don't think we need to introduce a third usergroup, either between sysops and crats, or above crats, but I'm open to suggestions. -- Nx / talk 07:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think there's a decent compromise there, it removes crap that sysops could use to bork the wiki but would never use for legit reasons anyway - ergo we can still do the "sysops for all" thing. 'Cratships I think need to be seriously considered in the future. We need to give it to the guys who would want to and need to use the stuff that comes with it - I don't think the "been here a while" cuts it entirely. Plus, if we cut down on crats, there's less chance of people being sysop'd on sight and get abuse from the demotion joke before they've even realised what it actually means. I definitely don't think we need any more groups; there's a few technically minded individuals with access to the server and that certainly doesn't want expanded or given out "just because you've been here even longer". ^bomination 11:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I've only just turned up and I demand all the above-mentioned rights NOW NOW NOW Real first name and last initial 13:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I propose that people who ask for sysops status should be disqualified for the position. Just a suggestion :P Android^{We are all machines} 15:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I propose that people who propose that people who ask to be sysops shouldn't be sysops shouldn't be sysops. Real first name and last initial 17:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Vandal

Why are people at MIT wandalising us?
C:\>IPCity.exe 18.251.5.130
Country: US
Region: MA
City: Cambridge
Postal: 02139
Latitude: 42.364601
Longitude: -71.102798
Metro code: 506
Area code: 617
ISP: "Massachusetts Institute of Technology"
Organisation: "Massachusetts Institute of Technology"
Map: http://atlas.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?latlongtype=decimal&latitude=42.364601&longitude=-71.102798
I would have thought that the students therein would have more of a brain? Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 23:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Those contributions were criticism, not vandalism. And tracing users like that is kinda creepy. RaoulDuke 23:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You can never tell what those subversive liberals will do to us, can you, TK. --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 23:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah... let's not do this kind of thing. Corry 23:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, using a simple IP lookup on vandals is creepy. If they want to remain anonymous then all they have to do is create a sock with no email address logged. And criticism is fine, as long as it's in the right place. Why not talk on the mainpage talk page, or here, or the CP talk page? Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 23:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why you needed look up. - π 00:39, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Because it was interesting to see if someone spamming the crap out of the site was a CP editor. And look, MG is now talking to us instead of writing stupid messages on the nominations page. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 00:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

What I mean IP with the first number lower that 64 are class A networks, blocks of the internet so large you could read it off this comic. - π 00:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Umm, am I having a stroke or was that word salad? Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 01:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Lets try again. The internet is a finite sized thing. They (Al Gore probably) gave a quarter of it to the people that either, designed, built, or paid for it. You can tell their bits because their addresses which look like ###.###.###.### where # is a number, all have before the first dot a number strictly less than 64. - π 01:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

So, weirdos have the IP address <64.0.0.0 Mask 255.0.0.0? Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 01:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

IPs less than <64.0.0.0 tend to be government or companies with defence links, Haliberton for example. If you see anything starting with a 48, that is Obama. - π 01:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I just had a mental image of Obama using his super-sekrit government Blackberry to troll the shit out of CP and other right-wing blogs after a bad day. Corry 01:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

That is such a pleasant idea of the President vandalising CP because he is bored. Actually seeing as he has 16,777,216 IPs at his discretion he would be hard to block. He could have a special red laptop brought into to the oval office with a clean IP for his new sock. Reminds me of the time Ken blocked Oxford muttering something about Dawkins. - π 01:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I can image the exchange:

Obama-Rahm! Get me Andy Schlafly on the line! He's disabled account creation again!
Rahm Emanuel- He's spped dial 2 on the red telephone, right between Putin and Brown.
Obama- Thanks. Mr Schlafly? This is the President. What? No, I'm not a Muslim! Yes, I'm black. No, I do not have secret prayer session over basketball. Look, I know you're sore over the law review election, but that was decades ago! Can you just reenable account creation? Who? Jpatt? No! TK? Fine! *hangs up* Rahm! Get me Guantanamo Bay on the line! I need to speak to Prisoner #1827 ASAP!

Lulz. --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 02:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, criticizing the CP Awards on the CP Awards page is totally inappropriate. Call the FBI. And just because we can use IP tracers doesn't make it less creepy. RaoulDuke 00:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Its not creepy, its public information; people have a choice whether to register and hide behind an anoymous name to publicly broadcast their name. Running checkuser just on suspicion is creepy. The first is like someone taking off their clothes in a public place, the second is like peeking through the curtains into someone's bedroom. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 07:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Nothing creepy happened. People get led around a little too easily sometimes. 1. BON pops on as a BON contending he is the real MarkGall on the (likely fake) RW MarkGall's page. 2. BON posts a criticism of the CP Awards, as a BON. BON openly does these things as a BON because BON wanted any interested CP checkuser to see his IP address (and abuse his authority by checkusing an offsite IP address). 3. An editor posts BON's IP whois trace. That's what you get when you post as a BON. Big deal. 16:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Sic transit gloria GeoCities

Today GeoCities is officially closed. Just sayin. [1] Corry 23:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

My totally embarrassing (and nearly a decade old) web pages are still there. ^Me!Sheesh!_Mine! 15:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry -- if you want to create garish web pages with whatever you think looks cool at the moment and make someone who works in web design want to gouge his eyes out, there's always myspace. MDB 15:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

That reminds me, I have a list of people's "personal" Audi sites on my Audi webshite that probably contains not a single working link by now... ħuman 19:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

And now for something completely different

Anyone read Unseen Academicals yet? I've just ordered it on Amazon. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 23:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't feel it's one of his best; it's a bit like Making Money, as if he's trying too hard. On the other hand Nation is possibly the best thing he's ever done. Bob Soles 01:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I just never got into Nation. The writing style he uses in it annoys me. ^bomination 14:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Whenever Pratchett fans get together and discuss which are the best/worse books there is always strong disagreement. My dad and I have pretty similar tastes but he thinks that Monstrous Regiment is one of the best, I cant get on with it. I really rate Jingo, he finds the portrayal of Vetnari all wrong. The only place where we all agree is that Eric is a disaster - cue cries of 'No, no, it's my favourite' Bob Soles 14:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I've not read UA yet - it's on my Christmas Saturnalia wishlist. My favourite is still Small Gods, but I like almost all of his books. The only one I really don't like is The Last Continent. It spends the whole time pointing and giggling "see how clever I was working in yet another Aussie reference?" at you. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 14:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm a few books behind (reading Monstrous Regiment at present, with mixed feelings) but really prefer his earlier books, which seemed a lot more spontaneous & original. I find most of his later ones too formulaic, & he seems to labour a few weak jokes too hard sometimes. But I really like pretty much all of his Vimes / city watch books. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 21:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I miss Rincewind. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 22:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear

From the Daily Telegraph (amazingly): see rule 6 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6408927/Internet-rules-and-laws-the-top-10-from-Godwin-to-Poe.html Silvermute 14:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact, did one of you lot write this piece? RW is all over it (and Ken)! Silvermute 14:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

See the top of the page. 15:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)^{I am eating} _& honey^chat

D'oh. Never post when over-excited at something you've just found is the message here, I suppose. Silvermute 15:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC) This has been WIGO'd. ListenerX^TalkerX 15:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, apart from Rule 34, which isn't mentioned here but is common knowledge, it is pretty much all ripped from RW. ^bomination 15:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I've been looking at this for two days now

and I can't stop. Is there something wrong with me? Or is this totally fucking hilarious? ^{— Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block} 15:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, look at his little hat! SJ ^Debaser 15:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is anything wrong with you but I think all these "funny" cat pictures are stupid and I have two (soon to be three) cats. So, if liking things that some random internet person thinks are stupid is "wrong" than, yeah, there is something wrong with you. ^Me!Sheesh!_Mine! 15:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree Sheesh. Cats are capable of really stupid things without human intervention. My #1 cat jumped off my office type chair t'other day: the chair spun & the cat just moved vertically ⇓ instead of up to the desk. The followthrough: "I meant to do that" attitude was really amusing & not repeatable.

There's definitely something hypnotic about it. ^bomination 15:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

In many areas of life, I'm a reasonably sophisticated guy. I like good wine and fine food, appreciate literature and music, and can discourse on philosophy and metaphysics with my similarly erudite friends... but give me a picture of a cat with a silly caption and I'll giggle like an idiot. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 15:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

True, true. We're all immature gits deep down. ^bomination 16:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm an immature git up front. SJ ^Debaser 21:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

But is he taking it off or flipping it?? ^{— Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block} 17:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

MJ

My housemate is a bastard. Last night he called me into his room and showed me a video of some guy walking around the late Michael Jackson's Neverland ranch - I hadn't heard this before, but supposedly there was a ghost of MJ caught on camera. Anyway, my friend showed me the video, except this was an altered version. There was an ominous horror music kinda thing going on in the background, then as the shadow passed in the distance which was supposedly the ghost, I dead corpse comes up on the screen, and as it tells you to turn the speakers up loud it screams at you. I predicted this about 10 seconds before it happened, having seen these things beforehand, but I still felt like punching my housemate. SJ ^Debaser 15:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I got burnt by that very video, and felt like an ass because of it. Shoulda seen it coming. Aboriginal Noise ^{Oh, what a lovely tea party!} 15:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I had a house mate once who was kicked out of the Army for reasons that were never made clear to me - I think he was on disability for whatever it was wrong with him and he'd spend his days down at the airport video taping planes landing and taking off. I came home from work one day and he insisted on showing me his video of the day - "Here's a plane taking off. Here is one landing. Wait, heres come another!" I told him I thought it was great and wandered off but he got mad and shouted up the stairs after me "Well! I guess if you have seen one plane take off and land you have seen them all then!" Well, yes, you fucking nitwit. Ace^McWicked 20:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Was his favorite song "Back in the USSR"? ħuman 23:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I've only heard the DK version of that. Beatles originally wasn't it? SJ ^Debaser 12:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Constructive Mouse Wiggling

This makes you feel good and you're helping reach a target too. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 15:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Hee! like it! ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 15:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I haven't had that much fun slapping someone across the face since my first relationship. ^bomination 15:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I slapped him to the beat of "Guns of Brixton" by the Clash. SJ ^Debaser 15:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm up to 400 now over about three sessions. I was thinking that this plays into their persecution complex a little, but really, its totally tame compared to the shit that was made against Blair and Bush (back in the day). ^bomination 16:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

500! Harmonic evil Hoover! 20:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

ONE THOUSAAAAAND! --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 21:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Show off. But since I got home, I tried it with my graphics tablet and I can almost do it with a proper slapping gesture and it picks it up. Now we just need to find a nerd to port it to the Wii... ^bomination 21:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

OOPS:

“”After watching the build up to Question Time on TV, we wanted to see how people felt about Nick Griffin, so we put up an application called Slap Nick Griffin. The experiment has attracted 20 million slaps, which we think is enough, so it has now been taken down.

—http://www.slapnickgriffin.co.uk/

^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 12:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Current Private Eye cover is a "Free Cut-Out-'n'-Keep Halloween Novelty: A Nick Griffin Horror Mask. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 12:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. And a particularly scary picture of him it is too (although it's tricky to find a non-scary picture of him). Shame about the website though. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 12:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Taking a break

I've got some "personal" "stuff" going on and it's affecting my wikimanners (ask ListenerX), so I'm de-bookmarking RW and WP until I get my shit together again. I don't know when that'll be. I love this place but I'm not right for it at the moment. Totnesmartin 19:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Dude, come back quick and I hope everything works out for ya. You'll be missed. Ace^McWicked 19:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I wish you a safe return to the wiki. ^{— Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block} 19:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to hear real life is intruding Martin but I know what you mean. Hope you get everything sorted soon and come back the dollhouse. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 20:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Best of luck mate, make sure you don't come back until you're ready. SJ ^Debaser 21:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Take care. See you soon. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 21:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, take a break and give it a rest. It'll do you good. ^bomination 21:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Bye, come back as soon as you can. I should take a wikibreak too, but my previous experience shows I don't end up taking the break. - π 21:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Best to you Mr.Totnes. Be well. DogP^{Marmite Patrol} 05:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Have a good break - but please don't be away too long. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 05:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Hey Martin, you bitch, I wish I had chimed in earlier. Best of, especially in real life. ħuman 03:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Need Help on Article of the Weak

Ok, I want to submit one, but the link seems to literally have spaces in it, so I'm not sure how to link. Anyone interested in helping me figure out how to link, do the following: Google "Vampire Research Society" (yes this group is serious), click on their website, and then follow the link labeled "Can Such Creatures Really Be."--Mustex 21:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Replace the spaces with "%20". Harmonic evil Hoover! 21:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this the page you meant? Harmonic evil Hoover! 21:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

K, I'm going to test it here: http://www.gothicpress.freeserve.co.uk/Can%20Such%20Things%20Really%20Be.htm --Mustex 21:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

It has autoplayed music, that alone qualifies it for AOTW. ^bomination 21:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Does this mean my Userpage is now an article of the Weak? That would be interesting... --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 22:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Google needs to be dissappeared next.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHMZ_enUS306US309&q=100+-+99.9999999999&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Now I am sure this is a government plot to feed me corrupted data and get me fired. --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 22:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Rounding error? - π 22:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The answer is just 10^-10. What's so hard about that? --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 22:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Definitely a rounding error at some stage due to using too many digits. It starts screwing up at 100 - 99.999999, and gets raptured at 100 - 99.9999999999999. ħuman 23:36, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Might only be using an 8 thingy floating point or something. - π 03:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

If you think that's bad, try adding 1.1 to 2.2 in Python. Harmonic evil Hoover! 14:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theory Rock!

I can't believe this aired on television... ^{Stu the Foo'} 22:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

That's an awesome cartoon! ħuman 23:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I love how Lorne Micheals claimed that is was never aired again only because it didn't get a lot of laughs and didn't fit the flow of the show..... Gotta love a coverup. SirChuckB^{Please Excuse me, I have to go out and hunt giraffes} 23:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Why didn't he just use the "laugh, dammit" sign they use for all the unfunny crap they do show? ħuman 23:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I wish I could comment on this, but they discuss my employer.Lord of the Goons ^{The official spikey-haired skeptical punk} 23:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

My PC is more liberal than me

I use Firefox as my preferred web browser and every time I follow a link to a FoxNews article, Firefox up and quits.--Thanatos 02:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Browsers flamewar below this line

Some topic several months ago piqued my interest. What browsers does everybody use around here? --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 02:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I use IE	11	Vote
I use Safari,	5	Vote
I use Firefox	46	Vote
I use Chrome	9	Vote
I use Konqueror	0	Vote
I use Opera	4	Vote
I use my cell phone	2	Vote

We could just ask Trent or Nx for the numbers of each? - π 02:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Boring. I much prefer the chance to vote. --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 02:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Well you could have saved this for next weeks pointless poll. - π 03:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Eh, let the newcomers play with our toys. They're Shiny. ħuman 06:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

You can only vote once? I use Safari at home, plus I occasionally use Firefox for the few pages that don't play nice with Safari. Plus, I use Safari on my phone. At work, I use Internet Explorer, mostly, plus Chrome when I'm at the home office and not on customer site.

Even if you asked preferred browser, it would depend on the OS: Safari for the Mac, Chrome for Windows. MDB 12:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Paf, all you poor "firefox" users should know by now that Internet Explorer is the superior internet browser. *runs for the hills* ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ <insert witty comment here> 13:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I use Firefox on my pc, & Opera on my cellphone. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 13:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I probably use Firefox most, but I look down at my Quick Launch toolbar to see Chrome, IE, FF, Opera and Safari icons all looking back at me. I make a point of using all the major browsers thedo wikis attract FF users?se days so I don't become too much of a fanboi for any given one. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 14:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Firefox (or Shiretoko, as it insists on being called). Harmonic evil Hoover! 14:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The "boring" server log info. tmtoulouse 15:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Extrapolating wildly - active Ratwikians are big on Firefox - see the vote above - but our casual visitors reflect the wider use of IE. Bob Soles 15:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I use Firefox (with Greasemonkey plugins) on my Mac and Safari on my iPhone but couldn't vote for each. 16:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably because the people who just visit the site because of a link will reflect the wider internet community. The ones who stay to edit will be the sort of nerd who wants to stay and edit a wiki, and face it, nerds use firefox. ^bomination 16:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Looking at my teflpedia stats. I get about 2000 unique visitors a month and a vanishing small number of them edit. (Most of them left over from the RW summer vacation. Thanks people.) The strange thing is that slightly over 50% of them use firefox. I can't believe that so many English teachers are techo-nerds though. Or do wikis attract FF users?--Bob^{Not Jim} 19:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Any sort of Wiki-editing requires at least a small technical skill-set to enable the formatting of one's posts and contributions. This probably leaves three-quarters of all computer users high and dry. ListenerX^TalkerX 20:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I also think that by this point people just instinctively know that when they use IE their computers break. I had to remove it from my mom's windows machine and give FF the IE icon because she simply didn't understand there was such a thing as another browser. She called the IE logo "the internet." But it doesn't take much to get past that, which is where I would think alot of FF users are starting from. 20:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Ares

Did anyone watch the Ares 1-X go up? Seems pretty successful so far. Shame it will probably all get canned in favour of blowing the cash on bombing dirty foreigners. ^bomination 15:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

There are some legitimate arguments for canceling the Constellation project. The US is trillions of dollars in debt, and NASA wastes an obscene amount of money each year. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 21:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Bullshit. NASA's proposed FY2010 budget is $18.7 billion, or about 0.52% of the overall FY2010 federal budget. I'll grant that NASA doesn't always use its budget to the best extent that it could, but by no means does it 'waste obscene amounts of money'. There are many other much larger waste of money in the budget. Of course, Constellation is still probably not the best plan, but that doesn't excuse your point.--146.57.80.12 21:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think sending people into space is silly. To the moon, that was cool. But the future of exploration is robotics. The Mars Rover things were far cooler than anything the Apollo project ever did. Keeping people alive over long trips through space is silly. Robots can go to Mars, and even beyond, and come back with samples, or send data on samples, far cheaper than sending protoplasm and water and stuff, and getting it back. Bonus? No icky deaths of schoolteachers. ħuman 03:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

And of course, the US military budget is $512 million a year, which IIRC doesn't include Iraq and Afghanistan, so, NASA aren't really wasting billions and billions are they? And the benefits of space exploration are more than just financial, I reckon that in the persuit of going into space, we can develop technology at just as much of a pace that we do when beating each other with sticks and trying to find a better stick. ^bomination 10:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Old Catholic Church

Ok, now that the page on Sean Manchester mentions the Old Catholic Church, do you think we should do a page on them? I was thinking of making it a Fun page, something like this: "The Old Catholic Church is a splinter group from the main Catholic Church. They broke away because they don't believe the Pope is infallible...on the other hand, THEY CHOSE A VAMPIRE HUNTER AS BISHOP OF ENGLAND! They are more liberal than the regular Catholic Church, and allow female priests...on the ohter hand, THEY CHOSE A VAMPIRE HUNTER AS BISHOP OF ENGLAND! etc."--Mustex 15:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

How many vampires has he bagged so far? --Gulik 17:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Depends on who you ask. He and David Farrant both claim to have bagged the Highgate Vampire single-handed (essentially accusing each other of fraud).--Mustex 21:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is appointing a vampire hunter stupider/weirder than appointing an exorcist or a faith healer? This is Christianity remember, they like that sort of stuff. Real first name and last initial 09:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, part of it isn't just that he believes in vampires, its also that his belief in vampires seems based on 1940s movies rather than folklore. If you want more than that, I'd say vampires are more testable than God or ghosts or angels or anything like that, if only because vampires are supposed to have a physical body that we could actually see, capture, and run tests on. But yet, no one has ever found such an animated corpse.--Mustex 14:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Random WIGO poll idea:

Besides the up/down arrows, would it be possible to add "good"/"bad" buttons so we can indicate if we think it's good news or bad news? --Gulik 17:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it'd have the homogeneity of a Fox News poll. ^{— Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block} 17:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I concur, we tend to be a pretty non varied group around here. SirChuckB^{Please Excuse me, I have to go out and hunt giraffes} 18:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree. It's like changing the polling criteria mid-vote. Who knows whether people are voting on the underlying item or the craft of the WIGO. 18:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Good/bad is pretty arbitrary, and I am against the idea. ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ current location: inside the crazy earlobe 18:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I am against anything that hasn't been spewed from my own revolting orifices. Just another chapter in the long running saga of Ace vs. "Society", what ever the fuck that is. Ace^McWicked 21:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Lonesome Roads McWicked ;) ^{— Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block} 21:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Someone has to do it, I picked up the gauntlet.. Ace "Lonesome Roads" McWicked 21:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

So let me get this straight: because of your lifelong struggle with the rest of the human population, we can't put good/bad buttons on WIGOs? Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 21:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Quite and you are getting off lightly, I gave hell to the clerk at the Video Store the other week. Worthless fucker, who is he to tell me I have fines? Ace^McWicked 21:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The one-dimensional arrows have caused me to consider carefully where I click more than once. Am I voting that this is a good thing or a bad thing? An interesting or dull thing? An inspired or a moronic thing? Or any other x/!x thing. Personally, I vote on a "Will I come back here?" basis. An interesting/funny/insane link or links gets a vote if it's likely to be interesting/funny/insane when I come back six months from now. Of course, opinions change so this isn't a perfect method, but it works well enough to serve. –SuspectedReplicant^{retire me} 22:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow that's a complicated system. I just ask myself: Did I laugh? Did I facepalm or groan in horror? Is the WIGO written in a humorous way? If so, it gets a green arrow. If not, yellow or red. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 22:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Me too. If the way the WIGO was written, or what it linked to, "amused" me, I vote up. If not, maybe down. Or forgot what I was doing and stopped caring. And if it was really fucking lame, I bitch on the talk page after voting it down. ħuman 03:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

In a lot of cases (WIGOworld especially) it's what they call on Flickr "Interestingness" that leads me to the . With WIGOCP almost anything they say or do is amusing also but here "Uniquity" comes up too - the constant repetition of some types of WIGO grows boring. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 09:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

To me, the "way it's written" is a non-entity. If it's crap, it can be re-written as WIGOs are Wiki-property. I always take it for "interestingness" and "relevance" - although with this criteria I usually prefer to not vote than to vote down. Toast has a good point about "Uniquity" that I think is very appropriate to WIGO:CP; "TK blocked someone" - booooorrrrring. "Andy wants to debate Richard Dawkins live" - oooh, this will be fun. ^bomination 09:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Jinx's blog

I was looking at PZ Myers' dungeon, and I noticed a link to an anti-PZ blog run by our old friend, "penis-bone Jinx". It's the usual idiocy, trying to make Christianity look good and athism/science/everyone else look bad and having the opposite effect via sheer stupidity, but I love this entry. Yes Jinx, I fully understand why you prefer the latter. Idiots are always attracted to flattery more than honesty. It's the way of the world. --Kels 21:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Errrr I got a gotse. Nice one Jinx. Incidently I tried to comment on his blog a little back, nothing profane, and he did not approve my comment. Ace^McWicked 21:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. - π 21:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like he's not accepting any comments at all these days. And goatse? Seriously? Sorry about that, I didn't check the link. Not surprising, he's unusually attracted to the idea of anal sex, perhaps Daniel1212 and Ken should have a few...words...with him. --Kels 21:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah it were on his shockandblog website. I made a reasonable and nonhostile comment - nada. Ace^McWicked 21:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I got blocked from Shock and Blog for laughing at his threat to report me to my ISP. Two months later and they still seem very uninterested. - π 22:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

They are just waiting for Jinx to say the word Π, then they'll drop the sword of Damacles which he has hovered over you for so long. Ace^McWicked 22:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope that one of his beloved kids visits RW, stumbles across a link to daddy's blog, and then comes face to face with Mr Goatse's strained sphincter. Would be fun for them to see what daddy gets up to at the office. And yep, the boy is mad. He could just as well be reading Superman comics, preferring to believe that his city is kept safe by the man of steel. --^{Ask me about your mother} 22:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I for one hope that doesn't happen. Maybe in a metaphorical sense, yes, but really. You want to expose a kid to Goaste? ^bomination 10:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The blackleg graduate student?

Okay, serious moral-practical crisis brewing here. The quick summary, as a TA I am automatically placed in a union upon entering my graduate program. My union is getting ready to call a strike, and I have to make some decisions and am looking for intelligent feedback.

Some background that complicates the issue

Graduate students at McMaster who are in the sciences and engineering departments are well supported. In addition to your TA pay we receive scholarships, bursary, and departmental funding to make sure we can survive our experience. We don't make much, but I can pay my tuition, my rent, eat, and with your help support RW. That is about it.

However, the humanity departments don't have this funding. The only source of support for these students is the TAship. That means that small changes in tuition increases or changes in TA funding have a disproportionate effect on the two populations at the university. The union is run by people out of the humanities, for various reasons. They are more likely to be engaged in the "system", show up to meetings and they have a larger vested interest in the outcome. The political sci department is in charge of bargaining and overseeing a strike as a poly sci major interested in public work is like publishing in nature.

I am perfectly happy with the proposed contract by the univesrity, but that's because of my additional support. A strike is likely at this point.

Reasons not to strike

1. I am TAing for my supervisor for my research, who is the one person most responsible for my success and good standing in this program. Pissing her off is not a good idea.
2. I don't think the union leadership represents me or my interest (see above), and have vested interest in seeing a strike regardless of the contracts proposed.
3. I barely make enough to survive, as an international student my tuition and fees are greatly increased compared to baseline, the strike pay would net me less money per month, I may not be able to afford such things as rent, or god forbid internet access.
4. I am not in a career job, I am here for 2 more years and out. This isn't clearly analogous to unions that represent employees that will have a lifetime at their job.
5. My strike pay will come at a significant cost of time and energy working picket lines, more time than I truely have to lose.
6. I think a lot of TAs might chose to scab, weaking the strike and making my "stand" meaningless.
7. Canadian strikers are fucking wimps. York University near by went on a strike that shut the university down, the government finally stepped in and said "go back to work." They wound up capitulating and getting a worse contract than if they had not gone on strike. The thought of telling the government to shove it never occurred to them. If these people aren't willing to fight once its on the line what is the point?
8. I feel sorry for the undergraduates who will be shafted on their education...but only so much.

Reasons to strike

1. I was raised on Union folk lore in a family that has always supported the struggle for better working conditions, scabbing is antithesis to my up bringing and my own political outlook.
2. There is significant social and political risk to striking with my fellow TAs who do go on strike.
3. The union can seek sanctions against scabs, or force you out of the union all together.
4. Even if none of this happens, if it works beautifully and the university capitulates, I get a benefit from others hardship with no personal sacrifice.

So what the hell should I do? Union can call a strike as early as Friday at midnight. Fearless Leader 00:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

I would strike, but I am always that way inclined. - π 00:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I've always been pro-union, even though I am a manager in a union shop and they all hate me, so I'd be inclined to stick with my union brothers/sisters. If you scab, there is a possibility of retribution from your fellow TAs who chose to strike, it would be difficult to convey your aforementioned issues to them. I assume there were meetings involved leading to the possibility of strike? That would have been a great way to air out the laundry, if you will. I'm not sure how the system works for universities, but I know there are laws in place for elementary/high school teachers who go on strike in that they can only be out for a set amount of time before they have to return to class (my alma mater is currently on the verge of strike themselves). Does this rule apply to universities, and if so, does it apply to TAs? Aboriginal Noise ^{Oh, what a lovely tea party!} 02:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm. As a lifelong member of IBEW (I guess, once you're in, you're never out?), which, ironically or amusingly is the union any employees I ever have would join (so I'd have to strike with them?), I think if you're in a union, and they call a strike, you strike. But then there are all the points in the "against" section. The politics... how much time would you lose working on your papers and your experiments, while hanging out in the cold weather waving a sign saying "McMaster Unfair!!11eleventy!"? Can you secretly work while wasting some hours each day blocking access to your workspace? Anyway, I say "strike". Although sometimes union movements create stupid situations, if the brothers and sisters don't link arms, there is nothing at all. ħuman 02:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

PS, isn't this also a great opportunity to experiment with drinking yourself to death? ħuman 02:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I want to chime in before Listener goes all arrrREDREDREDRED!!! Don't strike!!! only REDREDREDREDS strike. It's a tough call. as "red" as I am, it's hard--even as a grad student myself--to get behind the idea of a strike for many of the reasons you list here. Tops for me is that this is a limited contract (five years v. your two) and not a lifetime vocation. I like the idea of exploring alternative strategies (not inputting grades might be one example) that might gum up the works/be a pain in the ass but wouldn't do as much to muck up the u-grads' semesters, or your bottom line. And the big problem is, as you point out, that diffferent faculties have very different cultures re: the role and treatment of TAs/grad students, which makes it hard to co-ordinate plane and outlooks (my department only lets people in with five years of guaranteed funding in the form of TA'ing, free money and tuition waivers. Anthro, for example, does not, and people often have to fend for themselves. Hard to co-ordinate given the real disparities.) Anyway, as weird as it is for me to say this, on this one, I think you have to follow your heart...RaoulDuke 02:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, IIRC, ListenerX doesn't dislike unions, just union corruption. - π 03:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC) RaoulDuke, I have no problem with workers going on strike if they are dissatisfied with their working conditions. The only things I have problems with in that area are (1) unions being given legal privileges so that workers cannot be made directly accountable for unreasonable demands (as they would be in the case of a worker-owned company); (2) the fact that most union rallies I have attended have drawn out perhaps ten actual workers and also most left-wing cranks within ten miles. (Also union corruption, but that is a fairly apolitical dislike.)

Tmtoulouse, based on the conditions you have outlined above, if I were you I would cross the picket line with barely a glance left or right, but if you cannot do that with a clear conscience then most certainly you should not do it. ListenerX^TalkerX 03:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

A very well-put response from LX. ħuman 03:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

That is going to ruin Raoul's day, I bet he was looking forward to that argument. - π 03:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Your given reasons to strike: Reason 1. While this may be important to you psychologically it obviously should be checked against whether striking is useful or in your best interest. Reasons 2 and 3 look like pressures outside of the question of whether the strike is "right" / "wrong" or "good" / "bad". One could argue that there is a level of intimidation involved which it would be best to ignore. A cynic could regard reason 4 as an argument either way.

In contrast, your "reasons not to strike" strike me as generally persuasive.--Bob^{Not Jim} 07:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The real problem is surely: "as a TA I am automatically placed in a union upon entering my graduate program." As a one time union member and partner to a similar, I always retained the ability to vote with my feet and leave the union if I found they were growing too irrational. I never did (I always worked for smallish companies where we saw the owners almost daily) but I had the option. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 10:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC)I recall a massive stike action by some groups of lecturers a few years ago in the UK where they basically stopped marking. Students went fucking apeship over it - remember, if you do it, these are the guys who will be affected, strikers choose to strike and take the stuff that comes with such action, the students you teach are more than collateral damage. What are the conditions of the strike? Ceasing all teaching or just certain aspects like formal or assessed marking? Are you still going to be there for any undergrads who knock on your door after hours saying "dude, what the hell does this mean?". Of course, I'm biased towards this point because I actually do like teaching and still young enough to know what it's like to be a confused and bewildered student. You do seem to have more points against the strike action, though and your reasons for don't seem like you have your heart in it and you've decided already. ^bomination 10:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Morally a very difficult decision. On the one hand, you feel strongly about unions and the laudable goals they pursue. Scabbing would be a blow to the effectiveness of the union itself, though you've said Canadian student unions are hosers, and would subject you to the ire and derision of your comrades. On the other, this particular union was thrust upon you and does not completely represent your interests. Let me ask you this: what kinds of deals do those few grad students who are not members of the union get? Is you PI the one responsible for renewing your gig? Would quitting the union get you what you've got now without getting you in trouble with those rabble rousers? 14:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If you believe in the union movement, then you've only got one (probably very difficult) question to consider: do the humanities TAs have a legitimate case for strike action? If they do, then you should walk out alongside them. If they don't, then break the strike with a clear conscience. --Robledo 18:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Rounders

Does anyone here also like the game of bases and balls sometimes? (I feel so trivial posting this below the above dilemma!) ħuman 02:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Haters

As long as I'm playing. I can't stand watching sports on the tv. Watching athletes makes me feel even lazier.--Thanatos 02:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm from Pittsburgh. You do the math. 17 consecutive losing seasons = strong hatred. The World Series is just something that takes the other menial televised bullshit crime drama/reality show off the air a few days a week. But, I got to go with the Phillies in 6 games. Playing the game is a blast, though, and I was an awesome first baseman back when I wasn't so out of shape... Aboriginal Noise ^{Oh, what a lovely tea party!} 02:13, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I used to like the idea of baseball until I did actually go and see a match betwen the Florida Marlins and the someone pirates (?) when I was about 15 and holidaying in Florida. It was quite possibly the most dull thing I have ever experienced in my entire life. At least I got a Marlins baseball to take home, but that was it really (oh, and my dad bought it for me, it wasn't knocked into the crowd as you might have thought). Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 13:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Game 1

Meantime, game 1 is looking interesting. Keep in mind that Yankees fans root for the Yankees, and everyone else hates them. Sabathian pulled a fine seven innings or so - only allowed two runs. Um, but those expensive Yankee bats have given him "0" support. Lee is pwning the most expensive batting order in history so far. And the Yanks are into the bullpen - deep into it. ħuman 02:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Funny that both starting pitchers came from Cleveland. They must be so proud that they have nothing left on their roster. Another AAA farm team masquerading as a competitive market major league franchise. I count myself as a Yankees hater. I'm more of a Cubs fan if I were to pick anybody. Aboriginal Noise ^{Oh, what a lovely tea party!} 02:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

These Philly Cheese Steaks look like pretty good base ballers. That scoop at short that fooled the runner into thinking he was out that led to a double play - priceless. Lee's casual catch of the pop-up - ditto. Lee's behind the back catch of a comebacker? WTF skills? I wonder what his batting average is? Oh, and shutting out the most expensive batting order in history for 8 innings? MasterCard/Visa don't have a word for that. But it ain't over yet... ħuman 03:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Nice top of the ninth. I'm really rooting for this Lee guy, he seems to have the "right stuff". ħuman 03:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow, he's got it. A lousy throwing error steals his shut out. I don't think I have ever watched a major league pitcher throw a complete game. But then, I'm not a bases and balls junky, I just like the post-season. ħuman 03:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, Philly Steaks pwned Yankee Arrogance 6-1. Lamest commentator statement ever? "Both of these teams won 7 games in the post-season to get here." Yeah, by definition, you idiot. ħuman 03:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Lol, what commentator was that? Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 12:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Game 2

When did Pedro end up at Philly? I don't keep track... he's my favorite pitcher to watch, as long as his manager knows he's only good for six very interesting innings. ħuman 03:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone else heard this?

That putting onions in your socks cures colds and the flu? My grandma used to tell me that her family did this all the time--Thanatos 02:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Ever heard of "add new section"? ħuman 02:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC) (Just got pissed over an unnecessary EC)

I did press the button--Thanatos 04:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The top one or the bottom one? - π 04:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Putting aside a rather nasty attack from Human (everything ok mate? Here, have a Screwdriver, on me). I had never heard of this before it showed up on Snopes' Hot 25 They say it is false (duh) SirChuckB^{Please Excuse me, I have to go out and hunt giraffes} 06:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Those old cures all seemed to depend on various combinations of onions, vinegar and brown paper. I am unaware of the curative properties of brown paper. Is it healthier than white paper? A modern update seems to be that eating curry cures a cold. The germs aren't supposed to like the heat. Real first name and last initial 09:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

My late cousin believed that if you had a wart, you should rub a dish towel on it, then toss the dish towel onto the roof of your home. His mother was not amused that he tossed one of her dish towels onto the roof... MDB 11:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

In such a case you need to claim that it's your religious belief and people must repect it. ^bomination 11:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

You would be a bigot not to accept people throwing your linen on to the roof. - π 12:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

What a waste of a dish towel. You're supposed to put some peas in a bag (same number of peas as warts), leave the bag on a path, and whoever picks it up gets your warts. Real first name and last initial 12:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No,no. You prick a hole in an ivy leaf or is it you wrap small stones in an ivy leaf; anyway, one for each wart and then bury the leaf in the garden. When the leaf is completely rotted away your wart will have gone. (BTW ivy leaves take a long time to rot.) Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 13:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Half a raw potato rubbed on t'wart & then buried. Also many uses for cow pats. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 13:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

in passing: is there any truth in the "fact" that if you rub garlic on the sole of your foot, your breath will smell of garlic? ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 13:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Very easy hypothesis to test. We need a group of volunteers, they each will randomly assigned to one of two groups, either one they will get garlic rubbed on their feet or a sort of garlic placebo and then we smell their breaths. - π 13:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I for one am nearly certain this would work. And what better place to store your onions anyway? I do have one minor aesthetic concern in that I would be worried that the onions would make my rather slim and elegant ankles look a bit lumpy, perhaps even veering in to cankle territory. I almost took a picture of one my ankles as proof of their natural beauty but my office mates would have laughed at me if I tried to hitch my leg in position of the camera on my mac book. You'll just have to take my word for it. ^Me!Sheesh!_Mine! 13:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The curry curing a cold thing is actually because of two properties of capsaicin: (1) It is an irritant analgesic used for neuropathic pain. In small doses as a topical cream it acts as a painkiller, therefore a curry will help your sore throat. (2) Has a decongestant action because of the burning sensation in the mouth, which clears your nose. So it does make your cold feel better, but certainly doesn't help it persay. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 13:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, here you go, from the BNF: "Rubefacients act by counter-irritation. Pain, whether superficial or deep-seated, is relieved by any method which itself produces irritation of the skin. Counter-irritation is comforting in painful lesions of the muscles, tendons, and joints, and in non-articular rheumatism. Rubefacients probably all act through the same essential mechanism and differ mainly in intensity and duration of action." Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 13:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to put a stop to this right now, it's been going on here for far too long. The phrase is per se (Latin for "by itself") and not persay. </rant>. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 16:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Fucking hell, I can hardly speak English, let alone Latin. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 16:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Irregardless, it is a mute point. ^Me!Sheesh!_Mine! 16:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

New editors

This is an excellent reason for encouraging new editors. Many of us take existing articles for granted. Just sayin' ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 13:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

All new editors are trouble makers, we should disable account creation at random to discourage them. - π 13:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Or, we should disabled editing and account creation at night time to stop them. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 13:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Or just block anyone who joined later than ^{(plucks date out of thin air)} February 2008? ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 13:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Hey, you would block me then. Actually you should have blocked me, my first edits were shit and was an annoying little bugger. - π 13:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I know, why d'you think it took me so long to find the date? ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 13:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we definitely need to be ready and able to alter and dump massive amounts of crap that are essentially left over from when RW was all about Conservapedia. ^bomination 18:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)