RationalWiki talk:What is going on at ASK?

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Replacing WIGO aSK (Sticky)

A while back it was suggested that we broaden the focus of WIGO aSK to a more general WIGO about Wikis. Please comment on the main page talk here. - π

Or, if you prefer, bring the discussion here, since this will be the most affected page. This came up while we were on holiday at Bob's fine teflonwiki, so I don't remember how many of the dedicated AWKers were part of the discussion. ħuman

I've no problem with that. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member}

I'd like to see the response of the more dedicated AWKers (not to say GK's opinion doesn't count!), if they "approve", we should do this - IMO, anyway. Sterile? Kels? BobM? Who else? ħuman

I'm not active there (other than acting stupid every now and then), nor here, but I'd like WIGO ASK to stay. ASK offers me more lulz nowadays than CP. Editor at CP^{Oh, Finland! Why?}

To make this more sticky just three tildes ~~~. Also if you thinks aSK is better you can vote for it on the poll at RationalWiki:To do list.

One suggestion is we could have it set so that the logos or favicon appears next to each WIGO so we can see which site it is at a glance. What other wikis are people interested in watching? - π

I don't think there are any others any more. Wiki4CAM is dead, as is WikiSynergy. Metapedia is too vile to be funny, Creationwiki too exclusive and WikiIndex too boring. I think we should just stick to aSoK. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site}

I still suspect 80%+ would be about aSK, it is more if something funny happens on a Wiki that is not CP, it would be nice to have a place to put it. Say Ed on any WikiMedia project, or Lumenous in what ever the hell he does, plus there are idiots all over wikia, splintering and starting their own wikis over arguments. - π

I agree with Pi-man. It would be mostly aWK but give a place for other wiki-stuff. There really aren't too many characters on aWK to generate a steady stream of lulz. Mostly it's just PJR so if we can pad it out with other stuff then that would be to the good. As for a favicon a small ark or Michelangelo's gOD finger might do until Philip becomes creative. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member}

You could always do what I did at TP and just scale down the logo. Cubic time Hoover! 12:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

WS is not dead, it's being revived. Should be "visible" to non-sysops again "soon". So anyway, yeah, the "new" WIGO Wikisphere would still have all the aWK gems, such as they are, but would also be spiced up with anything interesting that happens on other wikis. The favicon idea is a good one, as long as they all have them. Oh, also WP shenanigans (like, by editor #188) could be reported on the new WIGO. Essentially it would be a renaming and expansion of this one, I suspect, perhaps with a new poll ID and a database merge of the old one. ħuman

Oh, and instead of no timestamps, how about an instruction to pibot like pibot|sticky=yes to prevent archiving? ħuman 22:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I have fixed it so it won't archive any thing with (Sticky) in the title, once I workout how to make it case insensitive I will upload it to the bot server. - π 00:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It is all good. - π 00:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

At least an excellent new feature came out of this discussion! ħuman 01:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

aSK, summed up nicely

I just peeked into an article from the Recent Changes and re-realized why I gave up editing aSK's mainspace not long after its beginning:

Quote mining is similar if not identical to quoting out of context, but is used as an accusation by evolutionists against their critics in particular. Evolutionists claim that quote mining is "frequently engaged in by creationists",^{[note 1]} yet their claims do not stand up to scrutiny.^[1]

With "Note 1" reading "Evolutionists consider intelligent design to be a form of creationism, so would be including ID proponents in this."

And, brace yourself, the footnote at the end reading: "See Quote-mining on CreationWiki."

OH, REALLY? CREATIONWIKI? GOSH, WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE, PHILIP! A CREATION SITE FUCKING AGREES WITH YOUR CLAIM THAT IT'S WRONG THAT CREATIONISTS QUOTEMINE? IMAGINE MY FUCKING SURPRISE!

But hey, it's after midnight, so my brain was kinda switched off already, and I foolishly thought for a moment that since it's a semi-open wiki, I could, I dunno... remove that part, challenge it on the talk page, or include the "evolutionist" side of the story since biased sources seem to be fine and dandy.

However, my brain came back online when I tried to remember my login password, and I remembered that aSK is so trusworthy that they don't allow claims that contradict The Biblical Worldview.

And then I remembered that back then, I actually considered that to be a step upwards compared to CP since Philip at least openly says that he's being a dishonest ass.

What's the Trope name again? Ah yeah: I need a freaking drink.

And even as the curtain is lowered on this post, a quiet voice inside of me asks "Dude, why the fuck did you even bother to check back into that place?"... --Sid 22:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

"Dude, why the fuck did you even bother to check back into that place?" because someone's wrong on the internet? ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 23:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the reason I'm nauseated is there is a point when self delusion passes into public deception, and Philip has crossed that line too many times for me. Actually, in terms of references, I'm still appalled by atheism in which footnote 7 references to ASK's morality article and PJR as a source (the Dahmer quote), and footnote 3, in which a debate in which two "evolutionists" (Dawkins being one) are discussing morality and how evolution leads to the perception of a moral vacuum. It's a two-line quote mine, and yet is supposedly holds up the entire statement, "Atheism itself provides no basis for morality." Sterile banana 01:34, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Mh, Philip's odd "Evolution is atheism, atheism is evolution" stance (and all its implications, such as the "Christianity is not compatible with evolution" remark from the Pope Philip WIGO) gave me headaches, too. And the quotemines don't help - I gave up trying to understand Philip's internal reasoning (read: the one that supposedly goes beyond "If the source agrees with me, it's reliable") for what is an acceptable quote source and what is not.

The bigger thing that irks me is the mix of laziness and apparent deceit I see in the footnotes of Philip and most CP sysops, which makes it much harder to believe that they tried to edit Wikipedia in good faith. The "no basis for morality" footnote is an excellent example. It links to a tiny quote snippet on a CMI page dedicated to hosting only that one quote snippet. How long would that stand on Wikipedia? Five seconds? Four? The interview is available online and easy to find by just googling for part of the quote, so I have to assume that Philip either was so lazy that he didn't bother to improve the reliability of his project by googling a copy of the primary source... or that he doesn't want people to read the big picture of what Dawkins actually said/meant. Even Ken's habit of randomly linking to random abstracts of medical journals to "prove" something or other about Gay Bowel Syndrome has more merit than this - and that's saying something. --Sid 08:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I often wonder what Philip would be like if he was intellectually honest, but then he wouldn't be a creationist any more. --Kels 13:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

No man, come on Kels. If he was intellectually honest his entire world would collapse. Ace McWicked^{Currently Lurking.....} 13:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Amazing

Is there no topic in the world that Ken will not madly try to avoid dealing with? Writing paragraphs? Really? --Kels 00:26, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Ken's writing is obviously perfect, and people ridicule it only because they can find no flaw in the magnificent content. A search engine starting with G lists a certain article starting with e from a site starting with C on a page starting with s, which definitely proves that people are impressed by Ken's skills which need no improvement. --Sid 11:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that will be last time I visit ASK. It's not just that it's the Ken and Phil (Diddyman?) show, it's just that there's so much stupid going on. I also don't know why people keep on engaging with K & P. yes, it might be fun to discuss issues with them, but at the end of the day, all you're going to get is Philip repeating 'Godidit' ad nauseum and Ken spouting his usual drivel instead of actually saying anything. I think it's time for u to walk away from this and let it die a natural death. It's virtually only RW people keeping it going anyway and we're giving Ken the attention he craves. --Psy - C₂₀H₂₅N₃O^{You know you want to} 11:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you serious Phil? Really?

this is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever read. He must be channeling Schlafly with this. He throws the term "anti-creationist" around with paranoid abandon. Ace McWicked^{Currently Lurking.....} 14:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the above link would make a good side-by-side article, whadya think? Ace McWicked^{Currently Lurking.....} 14:17, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree it would, but shall we let it "settle down" first? At least give PJR time to correct some of the horrible grammar? ħuman 18:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother, he's they've gone from stupid to insane. Dishonesty rules and that bloody tq thing is unreal - great for galloping Gishlike but nothing else. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 19:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

"Ever since Darwin, evolution has been supported with theological arguments, and this continues today....Dawkins, for instance, has argued that the human eye is wired backwards, something that a good engineer would not do.[ref] In doing so, he is making an argument about what an intelligent designer would or would not do. It is a theological argument, not a scientific one." That's the supposed argument for evolution. What an idiot. Sterile banana 20:22, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

*drags fingernails over keyboard* Must... not... react... to... troll... Must... not... rant... about... blatant... double... standards... GRRRRRRGH... --Sid 20:39, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

It is fucking outrageous. He seems to think Creationism being mentioned in passing as a crackpot idea in a New Scientist magazine qualifies as "controversy". Oh yeah, @human, give it some time yeah but it'll make a good side by side. Ace McWicked^{Currently Lurking.....} 21:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I read Pascal's edit summary (from an otherwise absolutely unconstructive edit war), and I have to say that I find it quite convincing. The way Philip instantly laid out the rules for his article on the talk page, it takes eitorial control to the level of... well... an essay, at least in the CP sense: "Feel free to contribute, as long as you don't argue against my conclusion." --Sid 12:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Reminds me of CUR and felidae article. "It is collaborative but I am in charge". Ace McWicked^{Currently Lurking.....} 19:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Dammit

I hate Opposite Day:

“”That is an atheistic myth. Christianity is solidly based on evidence. It's the religion of evolution that's based on blind faith.

--Kels 20:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, but the raw statement is soooo true! Christianity is not a myth, like you atheists say it is, there is lots of scientific evidence to back it! Conservative Punk 20:41, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

"Christianity is solidly based on evidence." <-- Errrrr, so why should Christians believe and have faith again? --Sid 20:47, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Why should we Christians think about complicated things like evolution when we can just blindly follow a (count 'em - one!) book that has, probably, been mis-translated over the centuries and filled with personal bias? It's much easier to believe than to think!Conservative Punk 20:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

If Darwin were so smert, howcome he's dead? Intellectual checkmate, athiests! --GTac 21:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I haven't seen Jesus or Elvis around much lately either. --Gulik 23:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for Jesus' next album. --Kels 00:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Just curious

If, as Philip seems to believe, Hitler was an inevitable outgrowth of "Darwinism", and that there's a worldwide governmental and scientific conspiracy to keep alternatives to "Darwinism" out of schools and research departments, then why aren't we overrun with modern Hitlers? Why haven't we had hundreds, if not thousands of them? Why isn't every country led by one? This "Darwinism" must be pretty weak sauce. --Kels 00:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

(EC)Again with the distortion (if not outright misrepresentation). Philip has explicitly stated more than once that he does not believe in any such conspiracy. I have not seen any post from PJR that the Shoah was an inevitable outgrowth of Darwinism. An outgrowth, yes; a logical one, yes; and one consistent with Darwinism (I have seen Philip state that), but not an inevitable one. Tricksy 00:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

So the defense is that Philip is telling a completely different set of lies and misrepresentations than I mentioned. Fair enough. Although the "he's not claiming a conspiracy" thing is a hard sell given this lovely essay article, pretty much entirely his own writing. --Kels 00:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I was not offering a defence. There was no need for a defence. You made false claims, and I pointed it out. Any requirement for a defense is on your part. So you are saying "conspiracy" is a lie and "no conspiracy" is a different lie. Likewise "inevitable" is a lie and "not inevitable" is a different lie. To summarise; nonsense. There is no mention anywhere in that article of a conspiracy of collusion, so you back up your false accusations with another false accusation. Fortunately for you there is no intellectual accountability here as RW. Tricksy 01:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I said that the two different positions on Hitler were both lies, that he was an inevitable result and that he was a logical result. As for the conspiracy thing, plausible deniability only works if it's plausible. --Kels 03:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, you've done this before; make an egregious and false accusation and when challenged you fall back on "well he's still wrong somehow" as if that justifies the original false accusation. Tricksy 01:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You are a base, ignorant fool. Watch as the Darwinist Obama applies his National Socialist schemes of Universal Healthcare and weakly supporting gay rights. Watch as he indoctrinates our children with Nazi propaganda about "working hard" and "reaching goals." Do you know who else offered cash for clunkers? That's right, Hitler. Kashenfürklunkeren was a key Nazi plan in the 1930s to rescue the ailing VW, right before kristallnacht.

First they came for the creationists, but I didn't speak, because I had a brain.

Then they came for the race-bating windbags, but I didn't speak, because I was really sick of those guys

Then they came for me, and made me senator, and I married a really hot supermodel heiress and won the Nobel Prize.

I think you see the point there. Lots of minihitlers, mostly democrats, deathpanels, Obamacare. 00:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

First they came for the creationists, but I didn't speak, because I had a brain.

Then they came for the race-bating windbags, but I didn't speak, because I was really sick of those guys

Then they came for me, and made me senator, and I married a really hot supermodel heiress and won the Nobel Prize.

HAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 00:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I've said it here before: Saying that "Darwinism" (whatever that is) is responsible for Nazism or eugenics is like saying chemistry is responsible for a nation's drug problems and nuclear physics is responsible for Hiroshima. Sterile banana 01:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, well, tough guy, tell that to Philip's face and try to stay fashionable! ħuman 01:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

OK.... Sterile banana 01:34, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

That hitler talk page is a mess. I'll have to wait for a more appropriate time to intercede. Sterile banana 01:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

If anything, Hitler caught onto the growing popularity in the post-industrial revolution world of "science" as a rather ill-defined concept, poorly understood by himself and the public alike, but generally seen as something bringing humanity forward, making our lives healthier, happier and more productive. So he cobbled together a hodgepodge of the stuff that was catching people's imagination and pushed it hard. But it didn't have a hell of a lot to do with the content of any of that science, and if anything the metaphors he chose for pushing anti-semitism (which was already present back in Philip's halcyon days when all scientists were "creationists") were more about the overall scientific groundswell rather than evolution in particular. --Kels 01:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Since he's actually told me directly he does in fact think there is a conspiracy in science to suppress Christianity, I'm with Kels on this one. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 01:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Evidence? You have some that Philip actually posits a "worldwide governmental and scientific conspiracy"? Tricksy 01:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you mean like the "scientists won't accept or publish ID or creationist papers" conspiracy? That's one of my favorites. Sterile banana 01:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I get it! Common behaviour equals a conspiracy! As in "in summer, picnickers conspire to sit in the shade". No conspiracy, just a common desire to avoid getting burned. Tricksy 02:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Gee, a logical, consistent, but not inevitable outgrowth. Like a cause-and-effect relationship, but not really? Is that part of the Biblical worldview to heavily imply a cause-and-effect relationship but not "mean it"? Ever hear of innuendo? And you guys are arrogant enough to say atheism doesn't profess a moral compass. Whine to someone who cares. Sterile banana

Argumentum ad Kendoll

Here's a fun little game. Read this and see if you can spot the evidence being presented. This is what passes for scholarship in PJR's little world. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 02:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

How does "It is futile to expect continued fruits of the scientific enterprise while undermining the roots in biblical Christianity." follow from any of that? - π 03:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

PJR seems to forget that 1600 years of Christianity had contributed nothing to science, and it was only once the religion was rationalized (ie the Reformation), that some support for science emerged (eg the Royal Society, to keep superstition down), that it had been left to the Muslims to advance sci. and tech. for centuries, and more than anything, that the sci. rev. took place as Europeans outgrew their mancrush for the ancients and believed they could be improved upon in the new golden age of Louis XIV et al. 03:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Do future generations of scientist owe everything to our superstitions and biases? Do we to the superstitions and biases of Newton or Bacon? If it is true that science owes its existence to Christianity, we need no more keep Christianity around that to keep the scaffolding used to put up a tower. PJR seems to think we should leave it up since the building owes that scaffold its existence. HumanisticJones 13:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

And they obviously forget that the scientific method as we know it now was pioneered in the Islamic world hundreds of years before that. And if it wasn't for the fact that Islam subsequently went bat-shit crazy and became an all encompassing religion, they'd be ruling the world by now. Also, as most of that seems to be "Christianity inspired the scientists", what about other things that have acted as inspiration? If I dedicate my thesis to Tolkein saying that Lord of the Rings inspired me, does that make Mordor a real place? No, no it doesn't. ^postate 13:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

We can't really expect more. PJR is a perfect exemplar of the sort of Christian who is utterly disdainful of all scholarship, history, and self-education, except when it can be twisted to support his preconceptions. 17th century Protestant Christianity as a catalyst for science is a very interesting thesis, though it only works in selective cases and ignores a wide swath of evidence, but PJR is not interested in the history, or the evidence, or the problem of accounting for 1.5 millenia of failure. 15:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Last night I was determined to make an article on the "Christianity invented science" topic, but was somewhat thwarted by The Ultimate Proof of Creation book, which as I understand it is the exemplar tome in making the "Christianity is essential to everything" argument, not being available in the UK. I'll probably buy the Rodney Stark book, which in any case will lead to slightly less embarrassing recommendations on my amazon account, and may make a start by debunking the PJR stuff. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 16:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

What on earth is an "atheopath"? ħuman 18:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

For that matter, what the fuck is a "Churchian" and who the hell does Safarti think he is to go and make up words like he's George fucking Orwell or Anthony goddamned Burgess? The Foxhole Atheist 19:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Fave line: "The compass, paper, printing, stirrups and gunpowder all appeared in Western Europe between AD 500 and AD 1500". Yeah, like that hadn't been invented in China several millenia prior to that. --The Emperor _{Kneel before Zod!} 20:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Thanks Marco Polo! Where would we be if you hadn't said "Hey, fuck church. I'm going to go see what's down the Silk Road instead." and then come back with all of your kickass souvenirs? The Foxhole Atheist 20:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Kendoll shot the food.

Apparently, our beloved Kendoll needs .5 to 1.5K in order to afford 1 to 3 healing potions that restore 2D6 health per month. He expects to be back to full health by early 2010, barring ambush by 1D3 homosexuals and evolutionists. Shorter: Kendoll is very weird. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 19:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Ken is like the village idiot, no matter how much you laugh at him and his silly antics, ultimately you can't help feeling sorry for him. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 19:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm puzzled why he posted that at the end of an unrelated thread on his talk page rather than addressing PJR directly. Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 19:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it was supposed to be related, he's saying he won't be taking part in any debates because he needs all his "laserlike focus" to earn cash. Knowing Kendoll, he's just bullshitting to try and avoid actually having to have a rational discussion. Not that I don't think he has health issues, they just aren't issues that can be addressed for 1.5K dollars. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 19:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I really hate doing this, but I can't help but point out that if American went to single payer, the system Ken and his peeps are trying so hard to prevent, he wouldn't need to attach him lazerbeam focus to making money, he would just go to the doctor and get some treatment...... I hate myself for exploiting someone's sickness for political reasons.... I need to go get drunk now. SirChuckB^{HITWIN FOR PRESIDENT!} 20:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, he did mention it at the end of a "debate" about health care reform, so the connection pretty much makes itself. --Arcan ¡ollǝɥ 20:20, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

@Jeeves - Someone tell Ken the cloth golem in the high tower of sorcery has blue potions (cure critical). Andrus sometimes carries arcane leggings (+10 mana regen factor) and the knight in the pyramid has some blue steel leggings that are +10 hitpoint regen. But I think Ken's real problem is that, as a mage, his constitution is naturally very low, so he'll also need to pick up some ornate wedding rings, a moth-eaten cape, and a crown of divinity. 20:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, Nutty. He just needs a quiet spot to hole up with his largely defensive +3 magical beanbag and a Tome of Comfort and he'll be right as rain in time for next Sunday's sermon. The Foxhole Atheist 20:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Cripes, is nobody gonna say it? Guess I'll have to. IT TAKES MANY DOLLARZ TO CHARGE HIS LAYZOR! --Kels 02:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

What is it that costs that much that isn't covered by medical insurance? Female hormone therapy, breast augmentation and laser hair removal? Ooh, maybe that's where he got his laser inspiration from. Crundy^{Talk nerdy to me} 12:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

It's some sort of woo-woo medicine he's going to waste his money on. So no wonder his insurance won't cover it. Whatever he imagines is wrong with him, unless it's entirely psychosomatic, almost certainly won't be cured by Feb. 2010, and he'll be out a grand. This is your brain on religion, kids. --JeevesMkII ^{The gentleman's gentleman at the other site} 12:42, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

{{User:Deadpool/comment|Deadpool needs health badly! Really though, Ken plays a mage. In real life he has no mana bar. It's merely an invention of the genre. I suppose his blood supply could be roughly analogous to a health bar. It's possible he could lose that in a quantifiable manner.}}

Don't know if anyone else has noticed....

.....but PJR is increasingly using "anti-creationists" over "secular scientists" and "evolutionsists". The parallels with Andy are become stronger. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 22:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I ain't a scientist & I have no evolutionist qualification (does anyone?) but I'm definitely an anti-creationist, so I suppose he's justified with me & my ilk anyhoo. ^{I am eating} _& honey^chat 23:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not anti-creationist, unless they lie, dissemble, partake of willfull ignorance, and misrepresent the facts....well shit, I guess I am anti-creationist. (especially that moron Safarti!) --Kels 23:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)