Indeed

...I no longer believe that this site actually needs or deserves moderators, and I have no confidence that the institution will ever be functional... I knew this before we even had moderators. What took you so long?

I have no business with people who engage in self-fulfilling prophecy. Here's a comparison: the Republican Party "knew" that the Affordable Care Act would fail, and then vowed to do everything in its power to make it fail. With regard to site governance, you and yours are no different.

Why do you want to keep fighting? I bite my tongue every time you comment on this stuff because there's usually something so wrong I have to wonder what you're actually trying to achieve. It's like you live in an alternate universe where only you are correct. Care to expound on who the "yours" is above?

Because I haven't done jack shit to make the moderator role into what it is, yet I reckon I'm part of the shadowy other you and your pals keep referring to. Maybe it's also Huw! Maybe someone else who doesn't edit and has barely commented on politics here at all! Ooh I'm excited to learn the identities of these powerful villains.

Seems like a waste of energy for someone who professes to want to help to keep this up.

I wish you had better judgment.

Throughout our turbulent relationship, you've had some choice words for me, and they weren't always feigned politeness about "judgment." You can't see some of the sources because you don't have the user rights, but let's see why I do not think you hold any moral high ground from which to lecture me about much at all:

profoundly mentally ill —Nutty Roux

a miserable autistic teenager —Nutty Roux

look[s] like a dude —Nutty Roux

authoritarian cunt —Nutty Roux

a talentless self righteous cunt —Nutty Roux

a vain and overreaching child —Nutty Roux

officious twat —Nutty Roux

liar, revisionist, and attention whore —Nutty Roux

The list is, of course, incomplete.

Has this all been one-sided? I did call you a "hypocritical cunt" a few years ago, before all the above happened, but I have since shied away from such bombast. You, however, have insulted my appearance right where it hurts, called me mentally ill, called me several times a cunt and a twat, and that's just the beginning. And no apology is ever going to come.

This isn't a direct response to your comment, but it's the one I'm making. Hopefully this will give a little perspective to how I view you as a person in general and your lectures in particular.

“”Part of the function of memory is to forget; the omni-retentive mind will break down and produce at best an idiot savant who can recite a telephone book, and at worst a person to whom every grudge and slight is as yesterday's.

—Christopher Hitchens, Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays

Completely irrelevant. These "slights" represent a pattern that has been more or less constant over the last couple years. If there were just one or two incidents, or if there was an apology, I might be unjustified in not "forgetting" about this.

I will discuss this no further.

How can it be completely irrelevant? You clearly hold a grudge with unusual stubborness. It's rather unhealthy. And I am unsympathetic to one who does more to tear down the person she hates rather than build herself up, which I've seen you do multiple times, including to me, with no evidence to back it up. Mostly I pity you.

Go direct your lectures at your pal too, then, for he is as guilty as I am, though he cloaks himself in martyrdom and concern.

I've apologized for the most intemperate remarks. If my memory of that is wrong, I'll remedy that privately. As to governance issues, I still firmly believe you have a habit of thrusting yourself into the fore with childish behavior and this officious concern for unnecessary legislation. I don't take back anything relevant to that, however I am definitely sorry for getting personal with you.

But all of this is neither here nor there. The fight I'm referring to is a political one. We can loathe each other. I don't actually hate you. At this point, after making an effort to reach out, however unsure I was of how to approach it and meeting the same response you've given here, I'd prefer to just pretend you don't exist. But I can't when you keep bringing this old fight up.

And Sterile is talking to you. None of my "pals" is responsible for me, just as I'm not responsible for them. If I were, I would have intervened when Ace was melting down, but I wan't there when I could have done anything so I didn't have any opportunity to rethink whether I'd get involved.

Sterile... seriously. That was one of the smuggest, purple prose things I've read on this site.

I'm not sure to which quote you refer.

"How can it be completely irrelevant? You clearly hold a grudge with unusual stubborness. It's rather unhealthy. And I am unsympathetic to one who does more to tear down the person she hates rather than build herself up, which I've seen you do multiple times, including to me, with no evidence to back it up. Mostly I pity you. "

"I pity you" Seriously? That just makes you come off as self-righteous. Granted I know nothing of yours and Nutty's problems with Blue, but statements like that? Not helping.

Well, take a look at the history then, and then make your informed, meaningful contribution to the discussion. The three-year old's game of "he/she started it" doesn't impress me.

I HAVE looked at the history, and quite frankly, if anyone made any sort of meaningful contribution to it right now, it'd be the first it had any. This is below even schoolyard tribal jocking.

I unfortunately have to go--end of the world party here I come. Maybe we can chat about it some time.

Revolverman, I don't know who you are or your perspective on all this. My recollection is that you weren't around or at least weren't a big participant in the first discussions last year about how we'd approach the moderator role.

Let me just say that my relationship with Blue is intractably fucked. I have no idea if it will get better. I do know that few people can bring anything helpful by intervening in this conversation. Brx is obviously a troll who consistently brings nothing of any substance when he comments like this. You're not, but I think your distance from all of this probably makes it unhelpful for you to interject. Sterile's got his own substantive things to say here. I don't think you do. Yet another meta-conversation about all of this is just a distraction.

You're probably right. I'm just sad how... Venomous we act towards each other. Its not a good look. And I'll end with that.

THIS.

It's not "years" but the nasty personal remarks totally overshadow the real meat of my message and I'm both sorry for making them and sorry that they distracted from addressing RW's best interests. There's no point in trying to explain how some of the rotten things I said don't really represent my real feelings. They were horrible and intemperate things to say at a time that I was having an impossible time separating my growing anger at you for things I've already addressed and the real issues.

I also like this one:

“”Grudges are for those who insist that they are owed something; forgiveness, however, is for those who are substantial enough to move on.

—Criss Jami, Salomé: In Every Inch In Every Mile

That's it, then? I'm supposed to sit here and take every transphobic comment, every insult to my integrity, to my intelligence, to my worth as a human and "forgive and forget"? No sir, I do not think that is the right path, and you demean me by so suggesting.

It's difficult to take seriously someone who characterized my as a power-grabbing jerk, when in fact, I had no ambitions as such, and in fact, the inversionism is ironic. Really, is this about Nutty or is this about you? There is a point when you can't separate the two. Dear Maratrea, if you take quotes about forgiveness as being hurtful, you really do have a problem.

Whoa, 5 alarm stop there, sterile. Why do you think you have the right to tell someone what they should or should not take offense to? It might be hard for some people to understand, but we don't always understand we're being offensive when we are being offensive.

And if you have the gall to say "Well, you have a problem for being offended!" you just step back. Because you translate that argument to any other issue, and it falls apart. Any other kind of bigotry. It's people of color's fault for being offended at racists? It's womens' fault they just can't take insults from misogynists? It's gays people's fault for being so sensitive at being called abominations?

Sorry, I just need to tell you to check it here, Sterile. People who don't like bigotry aimed at them don't have a 'problem' they have to get over. Even if they're some kind of patronizing loopy ass bullshit with 'forgiveness.' You can sprinkle as many friendly words in their that you want, you intent isn't magic. Just because someone meant something else when they said or did something doesn't make their actions magically OK. That's ridiculous. Your intentions aren't a band-aid.

I'm gay, so, um, I appreciate your sympathy.

Being gay doesn't give you the right determine what other gays take offense to. Anymore than me being Jewish gives me the right to decide what other Jews should find anti-Semitic.

^goodpost

Using someone's bigotry, no matter how valid, to dismiss an argument does not make the argument invalid.

You're right, that would be a specialized form of ad hominem. But there is no "argument" being dismissed here, so this is, again, irrelevant lecturing.

So you dismiss Ace and pounce on Nutty for no reason in one breath (because, after all, there is no argument) and complain about how others are the problem in the next?

It's so nice that we're all together for the holidays.

The lurkers in email have come to an uneasy consensus: like any "normal" family the holidaze bring out the petty resentment and opens old wounds from years gone by. It is not pleasant for any what parcipitate in these little get togethers (skirmishes?), but boy is it entertaining for the rest of us!

Please do keep up the good work of ill-feeling, nothing does the heart good like a big ol' dose of Xmas schadenfreude!

Bah, I'll schaden your freudes.

I believe this thread mentioned something about forgiveness?