Talk:Ramadan

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Honest[edit]

To be honest, I liked that piece of useful information (polar circle). I'll have to consider where to live if and when I convert to muslim. Ed @^{CP and RW} 08:04, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Yes, well. I guess it might explain why there are so few muslims on Greenland. --AKjeldsen^Godspeed! 08:13, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Muslims above the Polar Circle[edit]

Dr. D., could you perhaps be a bit more specific about how this makes Muhammad's revelations "less believable"? Yes, it is pretty difficult to be a muslim above the Polar Circle, but last time I checked, the Arabian Peninsula is nowhere near those parts. --AKjeldsen^Godspeed! 08:21, 29 December 2007 (EST)

The so called "revelations" of Mohammed are meant for the whole of mankind. Including the people living in northen sweden. It occurs that Allah didn't know how the world (he created) loked like. Dr. Dolittle 13:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)

That's an, uh, interesting way to look at it. And I suppose they're made further less believable by the fact that he didn't tell Muhammad how to deal with Muslim astronauts, eh? --AKjeldsen^Godspeed! 15:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)

An example of forest love for islam and so asking for references is bullshit[edit]

The duty not to eat and drink from the earliest daylight to sunset might seem to cause problems for Muslims living in the polar regions where the period of daylight lasts for several months during the summer. Under such circumstances, Muslims usually follow the timetable of either the nearest major city with a normal day-night cycle, or that of Mecca. Although this solution is not specifically mentioned in the Qur'an or Hadith, it is an example of how Islamic doctrine can be adapted to local circumstances while still preserving its core tenets (I mean why should rational people submit to rules which prove themselve to be not divine). Dr. Dolittle 13:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)

They shouldn't necessarily, but they shouldn't misrepresent those rules either. --AKjeldsen^Godspeed! 13:49, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Two comments that do not sit well with me[edit]

This doesn't seem to be written with snark or humor at all, so I found the use of "Moslems" to be out of place, and found "miserable Moslems" to be really quite - I don't know, just rude. What is miserable about them? Why are they running around feeling miserable? Also, little if anythign is mentioned about this being a time of giving to those who are poorest in what are often quite poor countries. Before I changed the wording, though, I wanted to make sure I wasn't either missing snark, or missing that Moslems is just the English way of saying the more common Muslim. --En attendant Godot_{"«Curiosity is insubordination in its purest form. V.Nabokov»} 11:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure it isn't, and I otherwise agree with you. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 12:04, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Better snark?!?!?PFoster 12:48, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

An honest question - Do people really want more snark on this?

Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 14:02, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

An honest answer - if it were about a Christian rite, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. PFoster 14:07, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

I only asked because I'm prepared to give it a shot, but I don't want everyone getting on my back because if it.

Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 14:14, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Well, let's let it ride for a little while and see what the mob says. I ain't married to it or nothing...PFoster 14:16, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Pink didn't like it. Care to discuss, pink?PFoster 14:30, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Oh hai. I thought you people were also expressing your dissatisfaction with those comments. Was I wrong?

Pink_(No?) 14:34, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

No I WROTE THEM--trying to poke around with stuff that was there that people didn't like. Not a big deal, you know, just, poring out my creative and intellectual energy for you people. PFoster 14:37, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

No, you REWROTE THEM, actually. And while I thank you very much for the effort, I feel such comments are not salvageable.

Pink_{(Expressing controversy since 1955)} 14:41, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Okay--why? and why is it okay for us to poke fun at Christians for their religious beliefs and not Muslims? PFoster 14:43, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

It isn't. And this isn't "poking fun", this (the original comments) is just tasteless insults.

Pink_{(Have a cigar)} 14:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

I think you’re trolling, Pinkie. You are reverting good stuff just to annoy the authors. Proxima Centauri 14:59, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Trolling? Hardly, Proxy. As the writer of the additional material, I feel it is up to you to justify it, so could you please explain for me why you felt it was suitable for the article to describe the habits of "moslems" in a manner reminiscent of a pest control inspector?

Pink_{(Talklink 4: Talk linker)} 15:06, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

I wasn't trying to be like a pest inspector. Only the very worst Moslems are real pests. They're a very small minority. Proxima Centauri 15:12, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

I wasn't suggesting you did it deliberately. It just seems odd to have a section that just describes how you see Muslims in the street -- it smacks of "there's too many of 'em round here". And is it me or did you describe them as being "miserable" just to imply that they're fasting but their hearts aren't really in it?

Pink_{(It seems low)} 15:19, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

<edit conficted> For much the same reason, I reckon "horny" should be removed from the description. Hungry & thirsty, fair enough: these are physical needs & when people fast, inevitably they must feel hungry. But people abstaining from sex temporarily during a religious observation aren't necessarily horny all the time, because libido doesn't really always work like that. & The idea of seeing all them horny suffering Moslems on the street during Ramadan isn't really a great image to present. weaseLOId

~ 15:27, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

My two cents. I really dislike using words that are not "pc" unless in doing so, you are adding humor, giving insight, or making an underlining "gotcha". Otherwise, it just comes off as insulting and rude. The "wandering around looking miserable" *could* be snark, but as it stood when I read it this am (might have changed by now) it just sounds like it's insulting. Snark is different from "I just don't like them damn foreigners". Why is Islam treated differently that xianity in this avenue? a bit of something like 'poe's law". That is, unless you can clearly tell it's snark, it comes off as racist and "conservative".--

En attendant Godot_{"«Curiosity is insubordination in its purest form. V.Nabokov»} 15:23, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Good rewrites, Genghis and Godot. Proxima Centauri 15:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

WfG - Do you have special knowledge that compelled you to insert less "adherant" muslims to feast? It has been pretty standard practice in the countries that I have worked in that special Ramadan food be provided for the Muslim workforce.

Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 16:04, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

I can't help but wonder what exactly the point of this article is. Is it to reach a genuine understanding of a different culture and their traditions? Or is it to make fun of all those silly ~~Muslims~~ Moslims and their silly cultural-religious behaviour which we don't really understand? --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 17:09, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

GK, teh way you put it, is that they are going to have a party each night, feasting and drinking and socializing... maybe some do that, and yes, all have special foods prepared (usually shared first with the less poor), but the whole "arrive at work too tired to work" thing is rather suggestive of the whole thing being a big lie. That's what's got my goat. Either you are suggesting that most Muslims lie (which was made in the first paragraph about going into hiding to do "bad" things), or you are not consistent in tone on the snark vs., not snark parts. --

En attendant Godot_{"«Curiosity is insubordination in its purest form. V.Nabokov»} 17:21, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

This activity is often called fasting but often involves Muslims feasting on special comestibles through the night until dawn leaving them too exhausted to work the next day. -- That is the quote. it doesn't sound at all like the mere providing of simple foods that are commong, but of a bashing the fast in general.

So your quibble is with my phrasing rather than some special insight? What I have experienced (throughout North Africa and the Middle East) is that there is a requirement for special Ramadan foods over and above the normal diet. During Ramadan the working hours are reduced, usually terminating at about 2:00 pm. Following this there is a siesta until dusk when the "partying" begins. Of course this is not to be interpreted in western terms as there is much praying and reciting of the Quran. However, the faithful tend to have a brief early morning cat-nap before stocking up on a full "breakfast" (that isn't really the correct word) before resuming their daily duties. As for going into hiding to do "bad" things, if you read what I wrote it is the non-Muslims who are obliged to conceal their activities.

Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 18:00, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

While I think it's funny, it is a bit broad of a statement. How about "This activity is often called fasting, but sometimes involves less-observant Muslims feasting on special comestibles through the night until dawn leaving them too exhausted to work the next day." You know, like some Catholics sneak chocolate during Lent??? (?) (we used to celebrate "Shrove Tuesday" with yummy pancakes (crepes) and sugar, but we didn't give anything up, so that was a bizarre observance...) ħuman

18:47, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Actually, yeah. Your sentance combined something fairly straight forward (providing more substantial food for breakfast to get workers through the day's fast) with what sounded like people using Ramadan as an excuse to PartyAllTheTime. It came off very "there is no real value here". I've never lived in an Islamic country, though I've lived with an Islamic roommate & best friend. He took Ramadan very seriously and not to "party". so your observations as written made me say "huh--

En attendant Godot_{"«Curiosity is insubordination in its purest form. V.Nabokov»} 19:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)h?".

Well, any single individual should not be taken as representative of the whole group. I have known many Muslims who give Ramadan a shot but then say 'what the heck' after four or five days. Others stay the course but it much easier to adhere to the strictures of Ramadan in cool Europe or North America than in the hotter climatic conditions of the Middle East and North Africa in summer. Of course just like Christians, individual Muslims follow their own ideas of the religion. For example, a Turkish couple that I know - the husband refuses to eat pork but happily consumes alcohol while the wife eschews alcohol but is happy to eat bacon or ice-cream with its non-dairy (pork) fat. In over 35 years of professional work and travel I have visited 23 Muslim countries. Those who celebrate Ramadan forgo food, drink and cigarettes during the day but then make up for it during the hours of darkness, as they are legitimately allowed to do. In the USA and Europe, Muslims often make a bigger deal of Ramadan because they are projecting and protecting an identity within another culture. The Arabian peninsula countries tend to be very orthodox but Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Turks and Egyptians are generally more laid back about it (not surprisingly these are all countries with a sizable Christian community). Iranians used to be similarly inclined but since the revolution there is a strong social pressure to conform to the religious norms. In countries like Azerbaijan, Kazahkstan (which is nothing like the Borat movie) and Senegal you would hardly know they were Muslim at all (again, all these have signifcant Christian minorities). So my experience of Ramadan where it is practiced with some degree of commitment is that they do "party" through the night, but the concept of party is completely different from what you or I may regard as fun as they will included a lot of praying and reading of the Quran as well as the eating and the strongest drink will be coffee or Coke. If you only knew one Muslim then the chance of them having a party during Ramadan must be pretty slim as it's hard to have a party on your own.

Генгис^{RationalWiki GOLD member} 20:51, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Too exhausted to work[edit]

During my training teaching/supervision, we were told about special considerations for students. Ramadan was one of the suggestions brought up in group discussion. Specifically, students who were fasting may not have the energy to work in labs and could be weary or tired. We're told to be sympathetic to this (which I agree with, I'm not going to be an arse) but I was quite controversial, apparently, when I suggested throwing them out and treating them the same as students who were too hungover to work. I mean, I've been in that position before and sent myself home. The comparision between fasting and a hangover wasn't acceptable to everyone else in the discussion, as no one else in the room saw them both as self-induced illnesses. No one is sticking a gun to their heads to drink alcohol on a night before a practical and no one is doing the same to make them fast - equally if their duty is to their religion or their partying before their work and training they shouldn't be there. But no, apparently this attitude is unfair. I still stand by my attitude, though. My priority is always going to be safety of the students and if there is one person in the lab that isn't well enough to be there, then they are a threat to the safety of others and they have to leave; I don't particularly care about the reason. In my two years of teaching I've never had to deal with such a situation so far, however. ^postate 17:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

It takes a true rationalist to have every single person in the room unanimously disagree with him and come away with the conclusion that, no, everyone else must have been wrong in that discussion. 86.1.122.140 (talk) 21:06, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Daylight and Sweden[edit]

As it takes sod all effort to put the problem into Google, I'll leave these here:

All basically refer to daylight hours - not clocks. And in the case of the first reference it states (although in reference to long winter nights, rather than long days)

“”In those circumstances, says Mahmoud Khalfi, Muslims are allowed to follow the patterns of the nearest city in which it gets dark.

The last reverted BON edit therefore is partially correct. ^postate 17:35, 1 January 2011 (UTC)