User talk:BenjaminS

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Oh my... another CP sysop among us? Or just an impersonator? --Sid 20:53, 25 January 2008 (EST)

No I'm real. If i were going to impersonate another sysop it would have been Schlafly or ed poor. --BenjaminS 20:56, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Well, Ed is already here, so that would've been somewhat obvious... ;) But don't worry, we won't ban you just because you're conservative or a CP sysop. On the contrary, actually. It's nice to have some people here! Most of us are banned on CP, so communicating usually happens indirectly through WIGO (since several CP users and sysops monitor that page - even though nobody ever really admits it). And while that works kinda well, it's not exactly the most comfortable way, especially since it's just one-way communication. Having people from CP actually replying is quite refreshing, so I hope you'll stick around :) --Sid 21:03, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Well if you make a sock on CP I won't block you till you do something bad. just try to keep more than 10% of your edits productive because even though I think Andy's 10/90 rule (commandment 7) is stupid, you might get blocked w/out doing anything bad. (but not by me) --BenjaminS 21:11, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Well, it's nice to know that we're not the only ones who think that 90/10 is silly. :) And Andy/Kara/whoever don't care if you got 10% or more good edits. They either make up numbers or claim that "10 out of your last 13 edits were talk, so stop pwning me on talk pages and get to work, slave!" or something like that. 90/10 is simply a nice tool some sysops use to cut off discussion. Most of the time, it's really just used to silence people who're making good/uncomfortable points.

Oh well, I see you're leaving again? A pity, it would've been nice to have a sort of ambassador here. But I hope you at least lurk a bit. We're not as horrible as The Ten make you believe. --Sid 21:17, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Careful, we have spies everywhere. ^{— Unsigned, by: 99.44.100.03 / talk / contribs}

I might be around occasionally, but I don't think i could be much of an ambassador anyway-- i'm on andy's side after all. --BenjaminS 21:23, 25 January 2008 (EST)

And just because I thought Tk was a bit of a pushy jerk and that BillOriellyFan's logo was the funniest prank in the history of CP doesn't mean I sympathize w/ most of this site. --BenjaminS 21:25, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Uh, you picked exactly the two things we had precious little to do with. TK wasn't exactly everybody's greatest buddy here either (to put it mildly), and from what I know, nobody here knows who the dude with the awesome logo was. (Edit to add: But I appreciate that you got a sense of humor :D Also, I'm not 100% certain I interpreted your comment correctly, so correct me if I jumped to the wrong conclusion.) --Sid 21:31, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Your Article

I'd love to write your article. Maybe you could provide us with some insights? JJ4E^{Veritas vincere tenebras} 08:54, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Christian Bigotry

I notice you're disappointed with the level of bigotry towards Christians here... but compare this to what's said about us at Conservapedia, by people who claim to follow someone who instructed them to "turn the other cheek".

Even considered in isolation, most of what we say about Christians is fair. Your faith has inspired a lot of awful atrocities in the past. I would have no problems with people following, for example, the Jefferson bible, but so long as your holy book looks approvingly on incest rape, genocide and human sacrifice, I'm not too comfortable with believers therein being in effective control of the world's largest nuclear arsenal and a lot of multicultural societies. Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 08:51, 12 December 2008 (EST)

You don't have to tell me that some on CP are unfiar towards certain other people...

Idk about the bible looking approvingly on those three things. The only examples of incest rape i can think of certainly weren't treated approvingly, nor was the only example of human sacrafice that leaps to mind (that story about the guy who rashly promised to sacrafice the first thing that came to meet him on his return home.)

As far as genocide, God does instruct the israelites to wipe out at least one of the peoples they conquer. God, however, is God. He is the one person in a position to justly give such a command. I wouldn't say that the bible looks approvingly upon human initiated genocide, but God can do what he wants.

As I've argued before (on CP) People usually forget that God has etternal perspective. He is omniscient and knows what is best. There is a scripture (i forget where) from which you can make a decent case for those caananites going to heaven. --BenjaminS 09:23, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Let's see... one of David's sons raped one of his daughters at the instigation of God (and causing it implies approval) as a punishment for David. Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son as a test of his faith, and the fact that he was prepared to do it is looked upon as a good thing. And a tribe who were willing to be circumcised in order to validate one of their members' marriage to an israelite were murdered totally, apparently at human instigation. In any case, why should God be allowed to violate his own moral rules? Aren't they absolute? Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 09:27, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Any religion tends to divide the world into 'True Believers' and 'Infidels', us and them. Furthermore any 'True Believer' should feel that the moral rules imposed by their version of 'The Truth' are absolute and universal. As such a 'True Believer' cannot tolerate the views of others. Typically we see intolerance of homosexuals because it is forbidden in the Bible. As such the more fervently one takes one's religion the more one is forced to believe that those with other views are 'wrong'. From my viewpoint it would appear that all religions are, by their very nature intolerant of opposing views and, as such bigoted. Silver Sloth 09:51, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Couldn't you make that exact same point about arguments like Wazza's just above? --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 10:02, 12 December 2008 (EST)

I'll just note that Old Testament God was a mean old bastard and that Judaism was going nowhere fast. God 2.0 ditched the personality disorder and Christianity ended up selling like hot cakes. Go figure... --Robledo 11:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Response to Wazza

Amnon's rape of Tamar: I don't know where you got the bit about God's "instigating" this. I just read the passage, and Amnon's action doesn't seem to have been caused (or approved) by God.

Abraham and Isaac: God kept Abraham from sacraficing Isaac. This isn't condoning human sacrafice. Furthermore, the Bible makes it clear that God was testing Abraham's faith in his promise of countless decendants through Isaac, and that Abraham believed that even if he did sacrafice Isaac, God would raise him from the dead. Abraham didn't believe that he would be permanently killing Isaac. I don't think that's quite the same thing.

Dinah and Shechem: The Bible doesn't condones neither this rape or the ensuing massacre. In fact Jacob berates his sons for their actions.

God violating his own moral rules: God's moral rules are a product of his chracter. In fact, God's character is the one true standard for morality. He therefore can't (or will not) violate his own ablsolute moral rules. I'll take the example of God's "genocide" for this argument.

The bible says, "The wages of sin is death", and "'vengence is mine' says the Lord." God can justly deal punishment without violating his morality. --BenjaminS 12:18, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Response to Silver Sloth

Are you saying that there is no absolute moral truth?

If yes:

What's wrong with being intolerant towards gays? What's wrong with rape? What's wrong with human sacrafice? What's wrong with genocide? What's wrong with believing in absolute truth?

In fact, how can it be true that there's no absolute truth if there's no absolute truth? How can you disagree with me on anything?

If no:

There has to be truth. It isn't bigoted to believe in truth. I boldly state on my user page that homosexuality is wrong. Am I then bigoted? I don't think so. Bigotry is where you hate the person. Righteousness is where you hate the sin. I'm just as much of a sinner as any homosexual out there. The difference between him and me is that I have accepted Jesus' sacrifice and forgivness. --BenjaminS 12:18, 12 December 2008 (EST)

First off, may I say what a pleasant challenge it is to talk to a believer who actually knows their scripture? Half of the Christians I argue with seem completely unaware that the Bible has two parts...

The example of Amnon and Tamar was perhaps a little weak in direct connection to God, but many interpret it as a continuation of the punishment God meted out to David for killing Uriah. In any case, God has intervened so many times in the Bible; why didn't he intervene now?

I'd like to know why you think Homosexuality is absolutely wrong. Can you point to anything other than the word of God? Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 19:01, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Eurgh, scratch that last one... this discussion is supposed to be about what you see as bigotry towards Christians, not about why I believe any bigotry is justified... Back to topic? Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 20:26, 12 December 2008 (EST)

If I may interject (and then run away), rape is sexual violation of another person against their will, human sacrifice is murder of another person against their will, genocide is murder of lots of other persons against their will, homosexuality is a relationship between two people of the same sex voluntarily entered into by both parties and doesn't harm any one else. Surely you can see there is a difference here? Генгис^{Our ignorance is God; what we know is science.} 20:40, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Responseto Genghis Khant Of course there's a difference. My point is that if there are no moral absolutes, nothing can be absolutely wrong. --BenjaminS 23:45, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Response to Wazza I won't point to any Moral standard other than the Character of God, because that is the only true moral standard. God's Character is revealed to us in the bible , so no. --BenjaminS 23:45, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Amnon & Tamar cont.: I don't really know whether God intended this as a punishment for David, however I do know that God sometimes allowes "bad" thngs to happen (one has only to look at the example of Job). You ask why God didn't intervene in this particular instance? I can't say. While He's omniscient, infinitely wise, and infinitely just, I'm none of the above; I can't always give you his motives.

EZ Edit Button

God's character? You mean the jealous god or the merciful god?

Also, can you point me to some bigotry towards Christians? Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 23:48, 12 December 2008 (EST)

God's Character: God only has one Character. You have, however, pointed out two legitimate ascpects thereof. I'm guessing you're trying to make a point that God's Character isn't consistent? Why is jealousy usually regarded by Christians as a vice if God is a jealous God? The Answer is this: Jealousy isn't in itself right or wrong; it needs an object. Jealousy is a virtue if you are jealous for those things for which God is jealous. Other forms of jealousy are indeed wrong.

Bigotry: Yes, I can. I ran across some a couple of days ago. I'll try to find it tomorrow morning though. Idk what time zone you're in, but I live in New Jersey and it's past midnight. I'm going to bed. :) --BenjaminS 00:20, 13 December 2008 (EST)

God's Character is schizophrenic. SETTING BEARS ON KIDS FOR MOCKING A BALD GUY is not the sort of character I want for any arbiter of absolute morality. And in any case, absolute morality is hard to argue when, at some point or other, just about everything prohibited in the Bible has been allowed or even instigated by God. Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 01:04, 13 December 2008 (EST)

As I said before, God is omniscient and we are not. We see the bear-maulings as bad, but we don't know what would have happened if he didn't allow them. What seems harsh to us may very well be a blessing in disguise. (though it's still not much fun for the kids). There is an instance in the book of first kings where God allows the son of Jeraboam to die as a young child. The bible makes it clear that this was an act of mercy to save him from what God had coming to Jeraboam (and probably also to get him out of Jeraboam's influence while his heart was still "inclined towards God"). This sort of thing is not a judgment anyone but God could make.--BenjaminS 10:42, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Barnstar

		Barnstar
		For your tireless contributions to RationalWiki, I award you this barnstar.

bigotry against Christians--another perspctive.

People don't choose to be black, say, or Italian or Native American or Spanish or handicapped; many people also hold that people don't choose to be gay, but let's leave that aside for a moment. People do, however, choose to be Christians. So while it's obviously wrong--i.e. "bigoted" to criticize and judge someone based on race, nationality or physical/mental disability, I'm wondering to what extent belief--creed in the old-fashioned terminology--should be afforded the same protection. We chastise people because they hold particular beliefs all the time without the fear of being called bigots: communists, fascists, people who believe in Santa Claus or that Elvis is alive, say. Many people hold racists, sexists, 9-11 conspiracy theorists, Scientologists, Raelians, vegetarians, meat eaters, radical feminists, Republicans, Democrats and Celine Dion fans in varying degrees of contempt because of their beliefs without fear of being called "bigots." Why should your beliefs be afforded a special amount of protection from scrutiny and criticism? Just a bit of a talking point...PFoster 00:03, 13 December 2008 (EST)

That's a good point. I'm not 100% sure bigotry is the right term. --BenjaminS 00:07, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Celine Dion fans kinda deserve it though. Hey Americans, you want her? She's yours! --Kels 00:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

No thank you! JazzMan 02:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Well, can we have Michael J. Fox back, then? --Kels 10:30, 13 December 2008 (EST)

He's still working on that stem cell thing. While I'm fairly sure Canada is a bit better on that topic, we still need some work on it down here from multiple sides of the political spectrum. Nancy can't do it by herself. --Shagie 01:44, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Don't you think there is a considerable difference between "scrutiny and criticism" and bigotry? It's certainly possible to criticise something while still being fundamentally tolerant of it - bigotry on the other hand is more or less by definition intolerant. Bigotry also implies a degree of prejudice, which I'd say is practically the opposite of scrutiny. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 10:48, 13 December 2008 (EST)

What I'm trying to get at is that it's apparently totally acceptable to hold people in scorn for their beliefs and not to tolerate those beliefs because they're harmful or just plain silly--we do it all the time. What gives this set of beliefs special status? PFoster 10:58, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Basically the way I see it is this: In a philosophcal debate between beliefs, the participants should view the discussion as belief 1 vs. belief 2; not You vs. Me. It's bigotry to bring the discussion down to a personal level and start attacking the other individual for their beliefs instead of attacking the beliefs on their own merits. --BenjaminS 11:06, 13 December 2008 (EST)

While I fully agree with you that it's better to criticize beliefs rather than people, I'm not sure that criticizing people for their beliefs is "bigotry". If somebody were to make disparaging remarks about people of another ethnic group, gender, or people with a particular sexual orientation then that person would be a be a bigot if the only reason for making the remarks were the person's ethnicity etc. On the other hand, if somebody were to suggest that people who believe stupid things are stupid, then they would be impolite or possibly engaging in an Ad hominem attack. But I'm not sure that I would use the word "bigoted" in such a case. Incidentaly, it's interesting that calling someone "bigoted" could be an ad hominem itself.--Bob^{bing up} 11:50, 13 December 2008 (EST)

At the very least, I'm sure you'll agree that when people use language such as calling religion "a disease" or "evil" or something similar, we have moved well and squarely away from an enlightened and democratic discussion and into the realm of bigotry? And I'm sure you'll also agree that such a level discourse is perhaps not exactly desireable in an open-minded democratic society? --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 12:02, 13 December 2008 (EST)

You would accept, I suppose, that somebody using such language as you have phrased it would be criticizing the idea and not the person?--Bob^{bing up} 12:54, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Actually, I don't quite see how you would argue for that. Logically, if you're making a statement about a belief, you're also making a statement about the people who hold that belief, since it can't exist on its own. Besides, it is my experience that people who employ such language tend not to be too bothered about such fine distinctions in the first place. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 13:15, 13 December 2008 (EST)

AKJ--is it wrong in and of itself to criticise people because of their beliefs--and not the beliefs in and of themselves? I have no problem thinking less of racists and sexists, for example.Some beliefs speak to the kind of person that holds them and what kind of human being they choose to be. Where do we draw the line on what beliefs we can criticise people for having and still not be bigots? PFoster 14:01, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I don't really think it's possible to draw a clear line, but you can look at a number of factors to "test" an opinion, so to say. For instance, how informed is the opinion? How open is the opinion-holder to opposing viewpoints, and to being proven wrong? Is the target group consistently defined and homogeneous enough that it actually makes sense to say something collectively about it, or are looking at individual members so disparate that it usually woulod make little sense to compare them? And is the opinion part of a discourse that promotes "good, civic virtues", such as tolerance, responsibility and an atmosphere of mutually respectful debate, or is it one that promotes divisiveness and intolerance?

Of course, one problem is that the term "bigotry" refers inherently to a value-judgement, so any definition is by nature subjective, but much like pornography, you usually recognize it when you see it. --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 14:52, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Oh, one more: Are you criticising something that actually has a measurably harmful effect on yourself or society, or are you criticising it simply because it exists? And is such a harmful effect actually evident or at least reasonable, or is merely asserted? --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 15:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)

(unindent) FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN (being the distillation of many years of being an atheist around Christians). Fundamentalists do indeed display a high level of homogeneity (one of the most amazing thing is that you can move to a different website, argue with different people, in different countries, and still see exactly the same attitudes. They even have the same arguments!). Their faith is causing measurable harm whenever they are allowed to have power. Moderate Christians don't cause any harm beyond allowing to exist a scale with fundamentalists at one end. I'm not sure faith is a choice, but I am sure that the type of faith is. A friend of mine was raised in a fundamentalist family, and still believes with all her heart in God and Jesus, but in no way at all supports any of the fundamentalist agenda. Since choosing that hateful doctrine is a choice, criticizing it is valid, especially considering the harm it does to our society. Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 18:59, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Okay, so it's not bigoted to criticise fundamentalism. I agree. Let's try "Christianity" next, and after that, once we've warmed properly up, "religion". --AKjeldsen^{Cum dissensie} 19:40, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Now, wait a minute, we're not allowed to criticize an idea we disagree with? I mean, that's all a religion really is, an idea. Criticizing Communism is considered perfectly fine and not bigoted at all, and that almost has the status of a religion to its followers... Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...}

I missed something. Is someone seriously claiming that Christianity, the dominant religious belief in the US, is somehow being discriminated against in the United States? In Saudi Arabia, maybe. --Gulik 21:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)

OK, I've changed my mind. I think I now agree w/ AJK : "Of course, one problem is that the term "bigotry" refers inherently to a value-judgement, so any definition is by nature subjective, but much like pornography, you usually recognize it when you see it."

I hate to keep picking on you Wazza, but I still don't see how Christianity is "hateful" or "causes measurable harm." (I know that through the ages, many people have done evil things in the name of christianity, but that doesn't count.) --BenjaminS 00:10, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Wait, what? People inspired by Christianity to do horrible things "doesn't count" as evidence that Christianity inspires people to do horrible things? How does that work? And yet, atheism and evolution ARE to blame for horrible things done in the name of atheism and evolution? You may need to rethink your argument here. DeadHead 00:16, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Just because someone does something in the name of Christianity, does not mean that Christianity condones it. Its like if I were a liberal, and I went to the RNC with an AK-47 and shot everyone up in the name of liberalism, and then someone said, "liberalism is in favor of murdering republicans" --CPAdmin1 00:33, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Have you read Conservapedia's pages on evolution, atheism, and their links to Hitler and the Holocaust? Being Admin#1 over there, I assume you're at least somewhat in agreement with them? 'Cause that's pretty much exactly what you guys argue.DeadHead 00:37, 14 December 2008 (EST)

If you haven't been watching my contribs over there, then don't make accusations that you can't back up. --CPAdmin1 00:44, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Sorry-I didn't mean to make this about you, personally. But that is pretty much the accepted party line at CP-atheism and evolution caused the Holocaust and Stalin's crimes; but whenever horrors are done "in the name of Christianity," it's some sort of freakish exception and doesn't count. Burning witches? Priests buggering little boys? Pogroms? Antisemitism? nothing to do with the church. Benjamin seems to want to bring the same argument over here, and i just wanted to challenge him on it. DeadHead 00:49, 14 December 2008 (EST)

There is a difference. The things that you list of horrors done in the name of Christianity, are in direct contradiction to Christianity and the word of God. The Holocaust and Stalin's crimes are not in contradiction to the beliefs of atheism and evolution. A reasonable argument can be made that they are the logical result of taking those beliefs to their extreme. --CPAdmin1 00:54, 14 December 2008 (EST)

No, no it can't. "there is no God" =/= "Let's kill all the Jews." (i would argue that religion AS RELIGION has killed way more people in human history than atheism AS ATHEISM--as opposed to political ideologies that embraced atheist worldviews; there is an important difference, you'll agree. communism is about way more than atheism, and many communists (think of liberation theology or the ways in which Confucianism has been assimilated into Chinese communism) have managed to bridge the gap between the two...) "Life forms evolve through a process of gene mutation caused by natural selection" =/= "let's starve the Ukrainians." (Sorry to be flip--it's late...but one's about scientifically explaining nature, the other is about power) There is as much a link between atheism and the crimes we're talking about and religion and the things that get blamed on it. obviously, we're not going to convince each other of anything here, but Benjamin needs to sharpen his arguments a bit. DeadHead 01:04, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Can I plug my own blag here? Rather than retyping the arguments I made there, about the whole evolution = murder thing, could you read this, CPAdmin, and pretend that I said it again here?-caius (mission accomplished!) 01:10, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Evolution says that everything evolved. When one member of a species gained an advantage, its survives, and the others die off. If humans are just a result of that process, then it is perfectly logical for someone to believe that his kind of human is better (more fit) then another kind of human, and therefore should be the one to survive. He is justified in killing off the "weaker species" in order to help the progress of evolution towards a more perfect form of mankind. --CPAdmin1 01:27, 14 December 2008 (EST)

You really belive that? You've been reading too much Ken and not enough Grade 9 science. That's a pretty big and stupid leap from "natural selection" to "it's okay to kill the inferior." That's why we see so many biologists running around with largely defensive weapons of gun exterminating the weak, I guess...Get off your high horse, son, the Godbotherers don't have a monopoly on morality, and you don't have a clue what you're talking about. DeadHead 01:33, 14 December 2008 (EST)

(undent) If you deny the existence of God, then you no longer have a basis for absolute moral truth. If there is no moral truth, then it is not wrong to murder millions of innocent people. While atheism =/= "lets kill all the jews," Atheism does = "There is no real reason not to kill all the Jews." It is not a contradiction for an atheist to do something like that. On the other hand, it is a contradiction for a Christian to do so, because it is against all Christian Biblical teaching. --CPAdmin1 01:14, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Empirically disproven by my lack of a criminal record.-caius (mission accomplished!) 01:20, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Wrong. I did not say, "all atheists are criminals" I explained that it is not a contradiction for an atheist to kill people. Atheism simply allows people to do things like that, it does not force them to. --CPAdmin1 01:29, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Right, CPAdmin1. Which explains why the majority of Nazi perpetrators of the holocaust, from the top Nazi brass to the camp guards who did the dirty work to the guys who drove the trains, the people who turned in their neighbours, and the bankers who profited from the seized property, as well as the hundreds of thousands of people outside of Germany who knowingly collaborated in the campaign to exterminate the Jews were lifelong members of Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches, which they attended regularly, got married in, baptised their children in, took the last rites in, and whose graveyards they were buried in. Because they "weren't really Christians." That makes perfect sense. An entire continent of Christians--a continent in many ways founded on Christian ideals--turns on its own neighbours, but NONE OF THEM really "count" as Christians, and their Christianity had nothing to do with it, even though--as Hannah Arendt laid out a half a century ago, read her book, Christianity was a well-spring of antisemitic rhetoric and practice...DeadHead 01:24, 14 December 2008 (EST)

If I call myself an atheist, but pray to God, and believe that he is going to answer my prayer, will you consider me to be a "real" atheist? The same concept applies. --CPAdmin1 01:33, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Ah, "No True Scotsman," eh. YAWN. Call me back when you've got some new arguments. These ones bore me. They, and I, are getting tired...DeadHead 01:36, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Ok, so you have a name for it. That doesn't make the argument any less valid. --CPAdmin1 01:40, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Unfortunately, one CAN argue directly from "there is a God" to "let's BRUTALLY MURDER evryone who believes in a FALSE God so that they can't infect OUR innocent children".

Not Biblically. --CPAdmin1 01:34, 14 December 2008 (EST)

One thing various Bad Things Done In Jesus's Name have in common: Jesus didn't STOP any of them, or even Smite the perpetrators for making Him look bad. And as for there being no Biblical endorsement, well, I can start with the Great Flood, an act of divinely-caused genocide that makes Hitler look like a piker, and move on to Moses's endorsement of mass murder and rape. If you REALLY want me to, I will, but it's been gone over a million times by better than me. --Gulik 01:22, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Jesus did not stop any of them because God gives us free will. The option to choose to be evil. Perpetrators are punished. (Hell anyone?) God has the moral authority to judge mankind (flood). Moses does not condone rape or murder. --CPAdmin1 01:38, 14 December 2008 (EST)

And you know, it doesn't say anything charitable about your opinion of human nature to insist that the ONLY reason you aren't a total psychopath is a belief in a gaseous vertebrate of galactic heft monitoring your actions 24/7. Most of the Atheists I know haven't murdered a Jew in MONTHS! --Gulik 01:25, 14 December 2008 (EST)

I do not believe in any inherent "goodness" of mankind. Human nature is fallen. I did not say that all atheists are psychopaths. you people keep twisting my words. I am saying that an atheist does not have a basis for absolute moral truth. And for someone who has no moral grounding, such things as murder are not inherently wrong. --CPAdmin1 01:46, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Also, the morality argument assumes that religion is the only source of morality. If one truly studies evolutionary biology, however, it quickly becomes clear that morality is an evolutionary adaptation necessitated by humanity's social nature. So, being an atheist arguably rids oneself of the unneccessary shackles of absolute morality and allows one to make optimal decisions on a case-by-case basis. I hate to make such an inflammatory claim, but religious morality is likely an off-shoot of evolution (please read Michael Shermer if you don't believe me). --Thinker 01:28, 14 December 2008 (EST)

(EC) Not to mention Joshua's big ol' genocide list. The examples are endless. When your source for morality is the magic man in the sky who, it is said, makes his will known to people seemingly at random and by soopa seekrit unverifiable means, you have justification to do anything. One can scarecly argue that ordering genocide isn't within jolly funtime YAWEH's remit. He apparently does it all the time. So if Hitler were to have claimed divine inspiration for killing the Jews, would that have made it right? From the perspective of my own purely humanist morality, clearly not. --JeevesMkII 01:32, 14 December 2008 (EST)

This is one long No True Scotsman fallacy, CPAdmin1. Your version of Christian is so redefined and hypothetical that it doesn't exist. Historical practice of the religion isn't something you can hand-wave away that easily.-caius (mission accomplished!) 01:41, 14 December 2008 (EST)

No, it isn't. I am not saying that Christians are perfect, or that Christians are incapable of such atrocities. All men are fallen, and capable of evil. That includes Christians. I am saying that if/when a Christian does do something like that, it is in opposition to Christianity, while if an Atheist does something like that, it is not in opposition to atheism. --CPAdmin1 01:50, 14 December 2008 (EST)

That's Bullshit though, isn't it. You're simultaneously appealing to God as the ultimate source of "moral truth", whatever that is while at the same time holding up the Bible as the standard by which people can be judged as good or not. Which is it? Is God the source of morality, or is it the Bible? These two definitions are mutually exclusive. As BenjaminS says above, if you're saying god is the source of morality, your morality boils down to simply whatever god says is the whole of the law. How are you going to gainsay it when I declare god mandated me to steal your possessions and rape your goats? You have to accept it as moral. On the other hand, if you're declaring the Bible to be your source of morality, then there is no need to invoke god as its source and author. You simply have a written code of morals, rather than everyone else's purely internal code. A pretty crappy code of morals in my opinion, but a code never the less. It would be interesting to see where you stand on this. Is the christian god allowed to redefine what is moral on the fly, and does he? --JeevesMkII 02:03, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Can't we all just get along?

I don't believe in god, you believe in god. Some things atheists have done have been completly deplorable, some things done by theists have been completly deplorable. We can throw rocks in every direction we want to, but in the long run, we are in this insane carnival called life together, and as such, I will refrain from joining in on this impromptu debate. steps off the soapbox ĴαʊΆʃÇä₰ I like mediocre leaks

What are these morally deplorable things done in the name of athiesm Javascap? I'm not saying that there aren't any, it's just that a long list doesn't spring to mind.--Bob^{bing up} 01:33, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Just out of fairness, he didn't say "in the name of" he said "by". Frohlich 01:40, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Communism springs to mind. However, unlike Ed Poor, I think atheism was incidental to the atrocities committed by Communists.-caius (mission accomplished!) 01:41, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I think it caused me to shout at BenjaminS at one point... Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 01:45, 13 December 2008 (EST) <-is ashamed

I forgot, is BenjaminS the kid who thought the worst thing about the Civil War was that the states got the Bill of Rights incorporated against them? that made me squander a good sock & shout at him too.-caius (mission accomplished!) 01:54, 13 December 2008 (EST)

BenjaminS is the guy whose talk page we are talking on right now. I have, and have had, no socks. Wazza^{Hello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me...} 02:02, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I don't remember saying that (obviously I probably did There's a record of pretty much everything anyone says on a wiki), but I'm guessing I said that was the worst result of the Civil war. The War itself was pretty much the worst thing about the Civil War. --BenjaminS 10:25, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Woah. How the hell is the equal application of the Bill of Rights a "worst result?" PFoster 10:28, 13 December 2008 (EST)

First of all, I'm not saying that I disagree with the bill of rights. The problem is, it is an enroachment upon (I hesatate to say states' rights) the way the system was supposed to work (also the way I think it would work the best). In my opinion, the federal government should be as small as possible. The fourtheenth ammendment gave federal courts power over state legislatures. Each state legislature is the representative government of each state. It really took away (to a certain extent) the right of self-government. I don't think that was wise. --BenjaminS 10:56, 13 December 2008 (EST)

The Civil War/Reconstruction have to be looked at as a second founding, an admission that the way it was didn't work. Thus, "the way it was supposed to work" was no longer relevant as of the passage of the 13th Amendment. The only sense in which federal courts usurped power over state legislatures is that federal courts are now allowed to enforce federal rights against the states. That wasn't an issue in the pre-Civil War era, because there was a whole class of people whose federal rights, we recognized, didn't exist. The only right of self-government that disappeared from the states was the right to dip below a certain floor of due process rights. Call me crazy, but I see that as no real loss.-caius (mission accomplished!) 11:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Further, if you're arguing that federal courts can strike down state law, the answer is they can't unless it runs afoul of federal rights. There's no jurisdiction, original or appellate, to challenge state actions on state grounds in federal court.-caius (mission accomplished!) 11:19, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Can't we all just get a loan?

My credit's not good enough :(-caius (mission accomplished!) 14:23, 13 December 2008 (EST)

No Real Christians

Ok, thanks to CPAdmin1, we now know that the Crusaders weren't Real True Christians, the Nazis weren't Real True Christians, and so on.
So....how do we know who IS a Real True Christian? CPAdmin1, if you're going to participate in this discussion, please first prove that you ARE a Real True Christian, not just another fraud making Jesus look bad. Fnord. --Gulik 01:57, 14 December 2008 (EST)

See this --CPAdmin1 02:02, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Unfortunately, it is impossible to prove whether or not someone is actually a Christian or not. It is a matter of whether that person has personally accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. And no one except God can see into your (anyone's) heart. --CPAdmin1 02:05, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Oooookay. So, Christianity, in your worldview, DOES provide a perfect, always-applicable moral code, which can be broken without any useful feedback from the Lord. Good to know. Let me direct your attention to the Old Testament, where JHVH-1 orders many, many brutal deaths, such as what His chosen did to the Caananites. Threequestions:

1. Was that genocide 'morally right', because God commanded it?

Does not the Creator have compete authority over the Created? --CPAdmin1 02:22, 14 December 2008 (EST)

1. If He commands another one today, will you help?

If God commands something, (and I know that he has) then I will do it. However, the situation is different today. At that time, the nation of Israel had a special position as God's chosen people. There is no such position today. And I know that God will not command me to do anything contrary to his word.--CPAdmin1 02:22, 14 December 2008 (EST)

1. Will He need to tell you personally, or will hearing it from someone who sounds really sincere be sufficient?

Someone sounding sincere (or even is sincere) =/= someone who is right. --CPAdmin1 02:22, 14 December 2008 (EST)

--Gulik 02:08, 14 December 2008 (EST)