Debate:Are moral decisions best made by rational thinking?

This is a Debate page. Feel free to add your own spin on the story. Please keep it civil! This debate was created by Radioactive afikomen.

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This debate was inspired by a (now removed) line from Essay:Why religion is bullshit. It asserted that "Moral decisions are best made by rational thinking. For example, no rational person would begin a war, because it is obvious that it is deleterious for society and economy."

One minor correction to the above: there is technically no such thing as a "moral decision". Morals, strictly speaking, are what you believe in, nothing more. What the quote above meant is ethics, which is how you act on those beliefs, and when those beliefs start to affect others. It is possible for someone to be a "moral person", but still commit reprehensible (unethical) acts. -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 07:32, 1 February 2008 (EST)

From the essay's talk page

Actually, before I do, do you really want to go with this sentence: Moral decisions are best made by rational thinking. I think it may go a bit further than I would want to go. For instance there could be circumstances where starting wars, stealing or killing people might be the most rational choice - but not necessarily the most moral one.--Bob^{bing up} 06:16, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Well, but if for example one steals things, then he will have no authority to forbid others to steal from him. So while he will have more possession in the short term, this is not true in the long term. Immoral decisions that appear rational usually are irrational if you think through all the consequences. Can you provide a counterexample? --Rational Thinker 06:30, 27 January 2008 (EST)

While it might be reasonable to conclude that if one steals things one could not forbid others from stealing from you, this is clearly not the case. Mafia bosses, for example, whose business are based on criminal activities have no problems forbidding others from stealing from them. Another question is - how long term? It is easy to imagine wealthy families whose fortunes were originally obtained by morally dubious terms and who have yet had to pay a price for selling slaves or weapons or whatever. Their were rational but immoral (at least in today's terms) but the long term has yet to punish them.--Bob^{bing up} 08:19, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Mafiosi have a track record of killing each other for various reasons, so I wouldn't count that as a particularly rational lifestyle. Of course you might just not be caught stealing, but is it rational to live with the constant risk? Then maybe we have somewhat diverging notions of rationality. I mean, you can also survive Russian Roulette, but that doesn't make it a particularly rational pastime, does it? --Rational Thinker 09:13, 27 January 2008 (EST)

While rational decisions may be made on the level of risk involved, I don't think think moral ones should be. Logically, if I had literally zero risk of getting caught robbing a bank then it would be rational to do it. But it would clearly be wrong morally. Please note that I in no way make this point in an effort to support religious morality, but only to point out that suggesting that morality is based on rationality is a dubious philosophy.--Bob^{bing up} 11:40, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Well, if you really want, edit that out, it's not the main point anyway ... I'm still not convinced however: your last example is definitely not a real-life example. And clearly, if you can rob a bank safely, then someone else should be able to do that, too. And if everyone starts robbing banks, the economy breaks down and money becomes worthless, so the robbery was not such a rational thing to do... But as I said, it's not the main point, so you can edit it... though I wonder, if you say that moral is based neither on religion nor on rationality, on what then? --Rational Thinker 12:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)

That is a very good question which we have debated here (somewhere) before. It seems to me that it comes from some sort of nebulous social development. Consider that this site includes deists, theists, agnostics, and atheists. But we all feel that, for example, slavery is wrong. A few hundred years ago we would probably not have thought this as a group. How is it that people of such different philosophical backgrounds would reach such similar conclusions? It would seem remarkably coincidental if we had independently and simultaneously reached this moral conclusion based on our theism, agnosticism atheism or whatever. The logical conclusion is that there is something which influences us independently of these views; and that we then back-reason this conclusion into our existing philosophies. What is it? The only thing that occurs to me is the ongoing moral evolution of society. I must say that I rather don't like even this interpretation very much as it seems to suggest that "evolution" means "better", which isn't necessarily the case either. But it's the best I've got. But OK with that out of the way I'll join in this one. :-) --Bob^{bing up} 12:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Current debate below here

There already is a moral philosophy based off of pure rational thought. It's called utilitarianism. To quote one textbook, and to be brutal and unfairly reduce an entire moral philosophy into a couple sentences, "the theory's most fundamental idea is that in order to determine whether an action would be right, we should look at what will happen as a result of doing it." As to what the goal of these results should be, it should be "the greatest good for the greatest number [of people]." Utilitarianism generally leads us to the same conclusions that a "rational" approach would, as Rational Thinker would probably describe it.

However, utilitarianism has largely fallen out of favor among philosophers because of some not insignificant issues. One example of these issues is that in utilitarianism, if suspending a civil right leads to greater happiness, then yes, that right can be suspended. A lengthier example would be if a murder is committed in a small town. An innocent man stands accused, but the murder, and subsequent delay of the execution of the accused, has caused riots to break out, causing even more needless deaths, trauma, and gross property damage. Utilitarianism holds that, if doing so would stop the riots then, yes, that innocent man not only can, but should be executed. Furthermore, if you also lived in this same town, utilitarianism would obligate you to bear false witness against the accused in order to more speed the execution along and stop the riots faster. To summarize this long-winded example, utilitarianism does not view "innocence" and "guilt" as intrinsically important. For that matter, neither does it hold a human being as intrinsically valuable. And finally, utilitarianism considers the motive behind actions to be irrelevant.

See what being "purely rational" in your morality gets you? -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 08:30, 1 February 2008 (EST)

The "utilitarian" solution in your last example is not what I would consider rational. It's just a stop-gap "solution" to a problem caused by the irrational behavior of the rioting people. The real rational solution would be to get the people to act rationally, not to appease them temporarily by executing an innocent. --Rational Thinker 09:16, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Follow the parameters of the hypothetical situation, RT. The people are already not acting rationally. Here, I'll express it in numbers for you:
Riots: 15 people dead; trauma; $250,000 property damages VS Executing innocent man: only 1 person dead; grief felt by his family/friends; collective guilt when town realizes they executed an innocent man (assuming they ever do).
As the oh-so-proud rational thinker here, which would you choose? -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 09:36, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Short term balance only. If you don't educate people to think and act rationally, they'll do it again and again and again. So you get Executing innocent man: only 1 person dead ... only 2 persons dead ... only N persons dead, $N\to \infty$. --Rational Thinker 10:07, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Fine, I'll let go of the utilitarianism-failed argument. Moving on...

Eventually they will stop rioting? That's very... laissez faire of you. And I can use the same argument against yours: Eventually they will stop: where t=time and n=persons dead, $\lim _{t\to \infty }n=\infty$ "Eventually" suffers the same problem. -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 17:36, 1 February 2008 (EST)

What is it that makes any of that rational or not-rational? --AKjeldsen^Godspeed! 10:26, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Kill an innocent man, and the killing will have no end. Refuse to kill an innocent man, and eventually people must realize that all their rioting bought them nothing but more death and destruction, and thus they will stop. The former: irrational. The latter: rational. Simple as that. --Rational Thinker 10:44, 1 February 2008 (EST)

How do you propose to make people rational, RT? -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 11:51, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Why, you just kill all the irrashional peoplez! --Rashunell tinkar 13:25, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Rt, please don't make asinine comments right now. I'm trying to discuss something, and your basically just trolling. -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 17:08, 1 February 2008 (EST)

ZOMG a troll on teh intertubes! killkillkillkillkill!!!

You make them rational by being rational yourself. They will see that their rioting and killing does no good and stop (unless they're irreparably stupid, in which case there is nothing to do anyway). If on the ohter hand you bear false witness and deceive them into thinking that somehow "justice" was made by killing an innocent person, they will never realise that something went wrong and behave the same way every time. --Rational Thinker 17:39, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Do you have any idea how long it takes for an angry mob/riot to calm down? -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 17:43, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Throw some cold water on them. "Execute" a dummy. Call the army and have those people locked into jail. In reality there is always a way out. You're making up a totally unrealistic scenario in an attempt to find a situation in which the "moral" decision (not killing an innocent) is not "rational" because there is this totally unstoppable "mob" which is killing ... whom? why? Doesn't make sense... --Rational Thinker 17:58, 1 February 2008 (EST)

I think a significant question is what exactly rationality is (and I note with some irony that RationalWiki does not have an article on it), or whether there exists some kind of objectively rational behaviour, as some people believe (and interestingly enough, they usually identify it as what they in particular consider to be rational behaviour)? There are some serious philosophical issues hidden there, which the proponents of rationalism usually seem rather oblivious to, possibly because they tend to be of a more... shall we say, natural scientific mindset. With that objection in mind, I really find it difficult to see why "rational thinking" should be neither better nor worse than e.g. religion as as basis for moral decisions. --AKjeldsen^Godspeed! 09:18, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Actually (and without furthering the debate very much) we do have a stub on Rationalism.--Bob^{bing up} 09:38, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Rationality is the property of being rational. In other words, it is the property of being like me. --Rashunell tinkar 13:27, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Whee, back to Philosophy of Ethics college class... Simply put, Utilitarianism is "the end justifies the means". As long as the means is less 'bad' than the end, do it. This really irks civil libertarians. Another example is "should you stay in a job that you don't like because it makes your co-workers happy?"

You also have the question of 'how do you measure utility?' The sum of the happiness of the society? This has the awkwardness if you have a community of... lets say cannibalistic rapists (bear with me for a bit) that rapes, kills, and eats anyone who visits from out of town. This really makes them happy. Some readings of utilitarianism say go ahead, that was the right thing to do.

The 'simple' answer is that if everyone behaved perfectly rationally, then moral decisions could be made rationally too. Give Kant a good read.

Until then, find a karaoke bar and enjoy [1]. Remember, Plato had it right... the best place to talk about philosophy and women are with a bunch of guys with beer and/or wine in hand. Karaoke will have to do. --Shagie 18:32, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Philosophy Ethics Utilitariapastafarism bla bla bla Kant Plato Karaoke crap and shit. I AM SOOO K00L!!! ^{— Unsigned, by: 87.5.17.75 / talk / contribs}

Fresh start; ignore the crappy hypothetical made above

Rational Thinker, could you define for me what you mean when you say "rational"? If you would supply how your definition of it, we can proceed from that common ground. -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 19:13, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Based on logical thought and not on authority. --Rational Thinker 19:20, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Right. and "logical" means based on rational thought. duh. ^{— Unsigned, by: 87.5.17.75 / talk / contribs}

While most philosophies can (sort of) be condensed to a single sentence, like what you just said, they can't be fully appreciated without a more elaborate description. Could you describe the larger framework this logical thought operates on (i.e. what assumptions does it have about the world, what things does it hold as intrinsically valuable, and how would it go about solving common ethical dilemmas)? -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 19:33, 1 February 2008 (EST)

All assumptions can be derived by scientific observation. For example, we observe a life instinct in humans, thus life must be preserved. "Common ethical dilemmas"? As in "weird scenarios that never happen in real life"? --Rational Thinker 19:42, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Oh, come on. Common ethical dilemmas, you know, stuff that happens in real life, every frickin' day. For example, "Am I morally obligated to boycott businesses that use sweatshops?" or "Is it ethical to buy myself a new car, even though I don't really need it, instead of spending the money on charity to Darfur?" or "can I shoot a burglar whom breaks into my house, with a strong possibility of killing him by doing so, even though he is probably only going to steal my valuables?" or maybe "Is it immoral to not provide health care to those whom can't afford it?" Stuff like that. -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 19:56, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Also, to directly address something you said above, "we observe a life instinct in humans, thus life must be preserved", animals—including many insects—also possess a strong survival instinct. Should we preserve their lives too? What happens when we have to choose between helping humans and helping animals—how would you justify treating animals as being less valuable than humans? Using what standards? And how would those standards not be arbritrary? -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 20:09, 1 February 2008 (EST)

May I butt in at this point to note that something never happening in everyday life is no reason not to discuss it; Rational Thinker's a great fan of the idea that if a theory doesn't work in every case, it should be discarded. Also, thought experiments. --מְתֻרְגְּמָן ^{שְׁלֹום}

I liek cars. --Rashunell tinkar 20:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)

So, i liek mudkipz. Refute that! --מְתֻרְגְּמָן ^{שְׁלֹום}

Opening up (albeit with tweazers) a 2-month-old debate

If a decision cannot be rationalized using any kind of logic (except the CP sysops') than it cannot be justified, and so cannot be judged under normal standards. For example, the decision to drop a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima can be rationalized, but much of the logic relied upon to justify it is opinion instead of fact, thus rendering the decision neither good nor bad, but debatable. So while rational thinking can lead to good decisions, rational thinking is really just thinking. Rational logic, however, is not rational thinking, and it can lead to good decisions. Good decisions are always based on good morals and good initiatives, so if both of these things are rationally proven to be good then the decision is automatically a good one. Lyra Belaqua ^Communique Delegate scorecard 18:12, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I think (!) "rational thinking" meant, by implication, "rational logic". Anywho, to address your main point(s)... every moral philosophy ever described has used (or at least attempted to use) its own internal, rational logic (yes, even the "feelings"-based ones—please, no sidetracking into definitions). The real challenge with rational logic has been fitting that internal logic into the "external logic" of the real world.

All moral systems suppose that certain things are more valuable than others. How do we logically, rationally arrive at these assigned values, in a way that isn't arbritrary?

P.S. Thanks for reopening this debate, Lyra. I miss these sorts of discussions. -- Radioactive afikomen ^{Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.} 18:37, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

The moral values stem from primal instinct and culture. For example, the Aztecs valued (for the purpose of this discussion) pleasing the gods over human life. The way that they arrived at this system of morals is very logical and not at all arbitrary. Culture is influenced by setting, and we'd all currently have the morals of the Aztecs if we had all seen evidence that there were real gods that must be pleased. The Aztecs during their period of cultural developement must have been influenced by some sort of percieved evidence. The evidence itself could be arbitrary, I agree, but not the method. So moral decisions are entirely based on rational thinking that is set by your system of morals.

Rational thinking is defined as thinking that can be rationalized by your set of morals. This would reinforce my argument that rational thinking cannot yield basically moral or immoral decisions. "Moral" is in the eye of the beholder.

P.S. Thanks. Do you have to explain the afikomen thing to people or do people get it that aren't Jewish? Lyra Belaqua ^Communique Delegate scorecard 19:14, 25 March 2008 (EDT)