Talk:Libertarianism

I've no doubt that they could tell me its not but isn't that Anarchy? Keep^moißt 00:26, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Libertarianism claims a small role for governments, primarily in national defense. So in other words, anarchy with an army.--MountainTiger 00:40, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

And a court system, since the only way in Libertarian Utopia to get anyone to do anything they don't want to (like stop selling strychinine as baby formula) is to sue them. What's to stop the rich bastards from bribing the judges, I dunno. --Gulik 00:48, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Oh, and a Mint, or multiple ones, since they need money to make their Free Market work. And some way to stop counterfeiters, I guess. --Gulik 00:49, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

So! They need taxes!! Keep^moißt 00:52, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

And of course they need cops to arrest the counterfeiters and trespassers. Don't forget about jails to house them, either.--MountainTiger 00:55, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Sounds like a bust to me. Keep^moißt 00:59, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Suppose someone 'd have to pay the legislature too unless they were willing to do it pro bono (snigger!) Keep^moißt 01:09, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Another essay

“”While there is a range of opinion among libertarians as regards to government interference, no one has ever convincingly explained why Libertarians come off as kinda irresponsible and selfish if their political view is so correct...

Essay give away. Also, if you're really interested in opening your mind to another perspective, try "The Virtue of Selfishness" if you have not already. Heart♥Gold^{Swarm like a hive} 22:37, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

Take a look at the page history. Also, the criticism is more about the attitude of many extreme libertarians, who can be as bad as, well, all other political extremists, than about the effectiveness of libertarian government. While it'll probably have to go eventually (along with my reasoning on why so few are in office), I think that the article should remain mainspace.--MountainTiger 22:45, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

(got edit conflicted) Ooh, greed is good? Ayn Rand? Sorry, I read her, she is at best an anachronism, and at worst, well, a really bad novelist and a worse "philosopher". By the way, HG, please hang on and hold on, while I write my "peace treaty" on your user page. You, and we, need to stop being so silly and so angry over political differences. Please abide by my promise to write this thing. Peace out, 22:48, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

I am not picking on you Human. I haven't read her in a long time, but I don't know that she argued that greed was good--but rather, that selfishness (self interest) was good. If you want me to keep away from your articles, I will. I am just trying to help you. Making essay like comments in an article will not be taken seriously. Dismissing my observations as petty revenge is just a wast of both of our time. Heart♥Gold^{Swarm like a hive} 22:53, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

Wow, I am drunk, I did not think you got in such a way. Did you read what I wrote, above? I have read Ayn Rand. I enjoyed the Fountainhead, didn;t know why I wasn;t "guided" to it earlier in my life. "Atlas Shrugged" simply sucked, for like a thousand pages (paying my dues). Made no sense whatsoever. Her "Objectivism" is not a "philosophy", as it has no axioms or logic. Anyway, see my above comment! Relax for a day or two while I write it. And, yourself - quit with the liberal/conservative dichotomy, as I have promised, I will discuss with you. human^{be in} 23:20, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

Okay. Anyway, I agree that Atlas Shrugged droned on too long, and her philosophy is not a philosophy (but I loathe reading most philosophy books, as they not only beat dead horses, they usually make horse hamburger. I didn't bring up liberal in this thread (unless you saw one of my previews). Ayn Rand is interesting, and worth reading. Had an English teacher in 7th or 8th grade assign Anthem. And now that I think about it, Anthem was prophetic.Heart♥Gold^{Swarm like a hive} 23:27, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

I am not for censoring - the books should be read to be discussed. I appreciate your perspective, re: Atlas Shrugged being a hard read. Also, Ayn's sexual issues (as played out by her characters), are fairly sick and ugly. Most of her sex scenes read like rape, to me. She is best taken in context, as a Russian writing to combat what she saw as a rising tide of socialism in the West, after her own personal experience of fascism built upon socialism in her home country. human^{be in} 00:00, 29 July 2007 (CDT)

This page made me cry a li'l bit. Really, it did

This page is based on a gross (and unfunny) misunderstanding of libertarianism. At best it describes anarcho-capitalism and at worst it describes Objectivism. Judging from some of the discussion above it seems the editors don't fully know what the meaning of libertarian is. Also, I don't know why the article has to be so hostile; both liberals and conservatives are hostile to libertarians, but libertarians can find huge areas of agreement with both groups. Why gain an ally and focus on where you agree instead of gaining an enemy and pointing out (in this case false) areas on which you disagree? JazzMan 13:49, 13 September 2007 (MDT)

Fix it and stop yer yappin'!User:PalMD

Bring up the errors here so we can discuss them. While some of the article is snarky, it seems to cover most of what I have encountered in "self described" L/libertarians. But if it makes gross errors... well, then, we should fix them. Shall we include a brief overview of the L. Party's platform for clarity? In my experience, also, "the meaning of libertarian" varies depending on which libertarian I am am talking to. human^{be in} 14:03, 13 September 2007 (MDT)

Ah yes, well that makes a lot of sense then. There are lots of various people who describe themselves as libertarians, even when they are closer to anarchists or anarchocapitalists (the anarchists get a little pissed about it... probably as pissed as when people call us anarchists!).

On re-reading the article I guess it's not as bad as I thought (it was the two conversations above that were misusing the definition; the article was just overly sarcastic but more or less going in the right direction). Here are some comments on the article:

• I'm not sure whether or not the term was "stolen" from anarchists (I wasn't really around in the 70's) so that part very well might be true. I'm not sure what the use of defining libertarians from an anarchist basis is though. Really the whole first paragraph is just a little strange ( i.e. "They now push themselves as the real libertarians despite hundreds of years of libertarian-socialist history that says otherwise" uhhhh what? I don't even know what that means). Also there is absolutely no mention of property rights anywhere; there's really only a couple important libertarian points, and that's one of them.
• I think the second paragraph was trying to be snarky, which is ok; it's what makes it an "RW article". However, it is basing it's snarkyness on a false premise, or at least a dishonest premise. Sure libertarians don't want the government to interfere with those issues, but it's not because they think those issues aren't important; it's because they think there are better ways of dealing with them.

-It probably appears to non-libertarians that they don't care because the only alternative they offer is letting "The Free Market" fix everything. This sounds every bit as rational as when a Christian Scientist recommends using prayer to fight a staph infection.Garble 22:02, 25 September 2007 (EDT)

• I've never heard the pork thing before. I guess it makes sense, but there are other candidates who "say no to pork" but still get voted into office. Libertarians would say (with quite a large amount of evidence) that there aren't more libertarians in office because of the enormous blocks and hurdles they have to overcome. They also don't get free press, and are denied access to many candidate debates. (For example: the number one issue in last year's Ohio gubernatorial race was the economy, but the candidate who had a PhD in economics, a libertarian, was not invited to participate in any of the debates).
• The difference between small-l and big-L is pretty much correct, though again it ignores the fact that the Libertarian party is socially liberal for the most part (and liberal in foreign policy as well; a pretty important issue right now).

-"Socially liberal" is more of a meme than a fact. Libertarians use it when being called Right-Wing in the same tone as when a bigot claims "Some of my best friends are (group I just insulted)!" It actually takes more than wanting to legalize pot and hookers to be socially liberal. Affirmative Action? Discrimination Lawsuits? A woman's right to choose even if she can't afford to bribe a doctor? Libertarians aren't socially liberal, they're socially indifferent. They have nothing against equality per se, as long as it happens on its own and doesn't get in the way of anyone making a profit.Garble 22:02, 25 September 2007 (EDT)

• The quotes are more of the "snarkyness," I guess. They are really the only part of the article that's based on a misunderstanding of libertarianism. I guess you could argue that you are exaggerating libertarianism, but then you'd be describing anarchocapitalism or objectivism :) My favorite quote is from Penn Jillette (of Penn and Teller fame) but I can't find the exact wording ANYWHERE! It's something to the extent of "Libertarians are conservatives with their money and liberals in the bedroom". I don't do the quotation much justice.

Sooooo in conclusion the article's not *that* bad, I guess I just was shocked by it. JazzMan 18:14, 13 September 2007 (MDT)

Thanks for the careful and considered reply! I also agree that the article gets off to a weak start. Whether the stuff is "true" or not, the lead para. is clumsy. Like it was written by three drunk monkeys (well, chances are, itwas!) It does mention "property rights", but mostly in snark about wealth. Anyway, now that you have surely "paid your dues to Ed Poor", you are more than welcome to make this thing better - especially with stuff you know. Please leave some or most of the snark, though. Have you read our Dem. and Rep. articles? We need one on the Greens now for "balance". Although, of course, this article isn't specifically about the L. Party. human^{be in} 18:26, 13 September 2007 (MDT)

Good call. I'll read over those and try to keep it within style (I'm learning it slowly but surely). *looks at clock* Uh... so that's going to happen tomorrow, since I just remembered I have a test that I haven't studied for yet. JazzMan 21:27, 13 September 2007 (MDT) heh, drunk monkeys

So uh, on viewing Democratic Party and Republican Party, I think this article is just fine how it is! JazzMan 15:18, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

Hahahahahaha, context is amazing, isn't it? Maybe they should all link to each other... or be in a small cat of their own... human^{be in} 15:20, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

DogP I trust you're gonna see to that red link - you're being watched. SJG^sjg 16:40, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

The conservative Ralph Nader?

Rackjite.com says that the vote to put a pro-choice position in the party platform was barely passed by 1. I think the John Birch Conspiracy theorists have largely been disaffected to the Constitution Party, leaving the party to the secular college idealists, but Libertarians don't really give a rat's ass about social issues anyways. On the other hand, we should bankroll the libertarians so they can have a Nader! Since the Constitution Party is Christian Reconstructionist at its MILDEST, bankrolling them would be a BAD idea, as the media DOES hate social radicals on either side. You might just remove one/third of the Republican Party's base (the NRA/skinheads), and the Republicans would be fucked in several local areas, and could even lose a lot of racist mountain states (i.e. IDAHO and WYOMING). Just some random ideas. ^{— Unsigned, by: 68.34.218.216 / talk / contribs} 20:58, 20 September 2007

Amusement

I question the entertainment value of the quotes in that section because none of them are true, and as Homer Simpson once said; "Its funny because its true." 12.75.66.221 21:10, 17 November 2007 (EST)

My Edit

Why was it reverted? 12.75.67.43 23:34, 17 November 2007 (EST)

Because it was pointless and failed to add information or lulz. --Kels 23:35, 17 November 2007 (EST)

About the edit war that has been going on

"Also many of them have jelly for brains"

OK, that is just slander. RW should not exist as a liberal soapbox used to slander other political ideologies. 98.17.56.87 22:39, 25 November 2007 (EST)

But it's true isn't it? & therefore not slander. Susan^{... miaow ...} 22:47, 25 November 2007 (EST)

No, its just being used as an insult to say that many Libertarians are stupid. 98.17.56.87 22:52, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Well, to be fair quoting something that says "many" and claiming that it's saying that "all" are stupid doesn't really help your case there. --Kels 22:58, 25 November 2007 (EST)

OK, its just being used as an insult to say that MANY Libertarians are stupid. Now stop annoying me over pointless small details. 98.17.56.87 23:04, 25 November 2007 (EST)

what kind of jelly?69.216.120.233 22:47, 25 November 2007 (EST)

I think grape is the international standard. --Kels 22:50, 25 November 2007 (EST)

lime flavour Susan^{... miaow ...} 22:52, 25 November 2007 (EST)

How can it be an insult when all libertarians are stupid? Susan^{... miaow ...} 22:59, 25 November 2007 (EST)

I'll be honest, I don't think all libertarians are stupid. Selfish and short-sighted yes, but not necessarily stupid in all cases. --Kels 23:04, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Since I'm part of this "revert war" I might as well say something. I'm pretty sure you were one of those vandals who went around changing crap on all the pages. I might be wrong about this, but this was all days ago and I'm too lazy to figure out if this is the case. Anyways, I said this in one of the edit comments, keep your jelly-for-brains part (RWers love to feel superior to libertarians -- almost as much as they love to feel superior to conservatives, people of faith, wealthy people, you name it); I could care less if you go around deleting crap that other people wrote. Just don't delete MY snark or I'll revert you as long as I feel like it. Lurker 23:06, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Oh, of course. Everything you do is right and can never be wrong. 98.17.56.87 23:22, 25 November 2007 (EST)

(BTW - that wasn't an edit war - that wasn't even a skirmish - that was vandalism & reversion. Susan^{... miaow ...} 23:08, 25 November 2007 (EST))

Right, that's why I put it in quotes :) Lurker 23:10, 25 November 2007 (EST)

So its vandalism if i try to make it neutral? 98.17.56.87 23:22, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Who said we want neutral? & yes it is vandalism if you make repeated edits against reversion from an IP address. If you'd stated your point on this page first we might have agreed - as it is you've got our mutual back up. Susan^{... miaow ...} 23:29, 25 November 2007 (EST)

I made 1 revert. You say the word "repeated". 98.17.56.87 23:34, 25 November 2007 (EST)

You made 1 revert, that just by sheerest coincidence happens to be the exact same edit done by a number of different IP's over the past month or so. Hmmmmm..... --Kels 06:37, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Thanks Kels: I fell asleep (@6:30 am) before I could post this:

I can't be bothered to search the history but you've made very similar edits before, admittedly on a different IP address, so don't play the "who me?" card here. Susan^{... miaow ...} 10:23, 26 November 2007 (EST)

There is plenty of room for actual criticism of the article, if someone wishes to go for it on the talk page. The credibility of a vandals edit is low, but plenty of RW editors (or future editors) could work on this collaboratively. And for the record, I always described brains as a bit like meat-flavored yogurt. The zombie army may disagree, but who knows--i just won't be eating any more brains, libertarian or otherwise, again soon.--PalMD^{-If it looks like a donut, eat it} 23:14, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Doc - do you have to bring in the sweet sense of reason & logic when we're having fun baiting an IP of strange ideology? Susan^{... miaow ...} 23:20, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Mmmm...brains...--PalMD^{-If it looks like a donut, eat it} 23:23, 25 November 2007 (EST)

All of this over one fucking paragraph? Let it die. Locke ^{Always Watching......} 23:43, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Not to mention we've got an anon IP trying to push around established editors. Please at the very least get a named account. EVDebs 00:55, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Of course. If a person is an established editor then they are always right. I see. 98.17.56.87 12:46, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Not as such, but it does make you look like you're avoiding any sort of accountability. Would it kill you to register? EVDebs 13:52, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Hopefully it didn't kill him/her. Our glorious ex-IP is now User:EndGhost. Just mentioning it here for continuity's sake. human 14:21, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Sorry, i prob should have left the redirect. Anyway, hopefully peace now reigns throughout RW.--PalMD^{-If it looks like a donut, eat it} 14:24, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Why do you always seem to confuse Libertarianism with Conservatism? They are two different things!

Why do you always seem to confuse Libertarianism with Conservatism? They are two different things! 98.17.59.198 02:40, 3 December 2007 (EST)

The current US type of "Conservativism" seems to be in favor of flaying the government of all functions not concerned with blowing things up, jailing people, or giving more money to cronies of George W. Bush, especially any kind of government oversight of business. This synchs up nicely with the Libertarian opinion that the Free Market is God's smarter younger brother, any taxation is the moral equivalent of a Viking raid, and that letting poor people die of infections in the street is a blow against creeping Stalinism. Also, both groups' attitude towards the environment can be summed up as "Eh, it'll grow back". Other parts of their ideologies don't match anywhere nearly as well, but when push comes to shove in the voting booth, an awful lot of Libertarians who say they love Freedom and Civil Rights For All turn out to love tax cuts JUST a little bit more. --Gulik 02:55, 3 December 2007 (EST)

Add into the fact that a lot of Conservative political commentators/pundits in the US claim to be Libertarian as a fig leaf, to try to make it look like they're centrist while unquestioningly supporting the Republican administration. --Kels 06:53, 3 December 2007 (EST)

While "philosophically" they may be different, in the US things get confusing with labels right now. The GOP, which is at least very right wing, spends like drunkedn sailors and backs intrusive govt over personal privacy. Most Libertarians I have met are, on the one hand, philosophically opposed to any but minimal government, but then turn out to be, for instance, anti-choice and rather slow to condemn Bush for an unprovoked war. So, in the US, it ends up being fairly accurate to say Libs are just Reps who want to smoke dope, or at least seem a bit iconoclastic. human 15:05, 3 December 2007 (EST)

So what your saying is that many conservatives like the name "Libertarian" better so they call themselves a Libertarian even though they are not Libertarians. ^{— Unsigned, by: EndGhost / talk / contribs}

Yes, pretty much. I see Greens who parallel this - relatively natural constituents of the Democratic Party, but unwilling to associate with them by name. Sometimes it's because they have stronger views than the party represents, sometimes they just want to be "cool". human 15:45, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I think its because those stupid neocons are infecting the Libertarian Party with stupidity.

For a good example of this, see Ron Paul. Researcher 13:12, 4 December 2007 (EST)

There is nothing rational about this

Libertarianism can be summed up with the following point:

'Freedom to the Individual from External restraint'

Modern day Libertarians trace their roots from the great thinkers of the Scottish Enlightenment (Such as Smith) but also in the likes of Mill, one of the greatest advocaters of individual liberty; 'over his own body and mind, the individual is sovreign'

The ridiculous simplicity and ignorance of this article is outstanding. You wouldn't see anything like it on Conservapedia.

Libertarianism is the ideology of principle - They strongly believe in private charity and work hard to ensure personal, individual liberties are there for people to enjoy. They do not support the creation of artificial 'group' rights based solely on peoples skin colour. That is racist.

I also speak this from a position of being a Libertarian Liberal (If that makes sense) I am in the centre economically but agree entirely with the US Libertarians Partys social platform - I feel the government should get its nose out of peoples private lives.

Next time this is edited, please look at it from a rational viewpoint. Thanks. MarcusCicero 15:26, 13 December 2007 (EST)