Talk:Fascism

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Leftist are fascists, just ask Hitler and Mussolini. <---Nut.

Mussolini referring to FDR as saying “America has a dictator.”

FDR's personal letters reveal that he was impressed by what Mussolini was doing and said that he kept in close touch with that "admirable gentleman."

Mussolini praised the New Deal as following his own corporate state, as quoted in a July 1933 article in the New York Times, "Your plan for coordination of industry follows precisely our lines of cooperation." And Mussolini went as far as also calling FDR a "social-fascist" in a GOOD way.

This also attracted Hitler. Yup... you heard me correctly.

The Nazi press enthusiastically hailed the early New Deal measures: America, like the Reich, had decisively broken with the "uninhibited frenzy of market speculation." The Nazi Party newspaper, the Völkischer Beobachter, "stressed 'Roosevelt's adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies,' praising the president's style of leadership as being compatible with Hitler's own dictatorial Führerprinzip" (p. 190).

Nor was Hitler himself lacking in praise for his American counterpart. He "told American ambassador William Dodd that he was 'in accord with the President in the view that the virtue of duty, readiness for sacrifice, and discipline should dominate the entire people. These moral demands which the President places before every individual citizen of the United States are also the quintessence of the German state philosophy, which finds its expression in the slogan "The Public Weal Transcends the Interest of the Individual"'" (pp. 19-20). A New Order in both countries had replaced an antiquated emphasis on rights.

And on to Woodrow Wilson. Jonah Goldbergh and his book Liberal Fascism(you should atleast read it) points out that Woodrow Wilson was in essence the first fascist dictator(not absolutist sense) and president in the 20th century and this why.

Aside from the fact that Benito Mussolini actually said he got some of his ideas from Woodrow Wilson this is what the progressive president did during his term did.

1: Given broad powers to completely control the U.S. Economy(making it a command economy during his term)

2: Given power to censor the press and nationalized the telephone companies and industry.

3: Made it illegal to criticize him, the government, military, flag and polices especially in your own home(claimed to be just in war, but he wanted to keep these polices up even after his term).

4: Protesters and dissidents violently suppressed during his administration.(Goldbergh points out Wilson arrested more dissidents in just a couple of years than Mussolini did his full 1920s)

5: Established what would be considered the quasi-private police-state agency called the "American Protective League" administered by the "Department of Justice".(Goldbergh also points out Wilson did more violence towards civil liberties in 3 years than Mussolini did in his first 12)

6: Created the first official propaganda ministry

7: And dragged us into WWI(no, not the the Iraq War)

And about the conservative elements of fascism such as patriotism and sexism, it was sexism and patriotism being suppressed that existed way before fascism came abroad.

Oh.. and did you know Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy had Public health care?

Mussolini was an atheist and devout Marxist before he made Fascism, which is socialism and Woodrow Wilson's progressive polices Mussolini admitted to adopting.

Hitler also suppressed Christianity in Schools and they burned Bibles despite what Hitler said about Jesus.

And if it's anything conservative about Hitler, it's appeasing to most people who were generally socially conservative in that generation.

If it's anything, about the Christian Catholic rightwing Fascists such as the dictator in Austria and Francisco Franco of Spain, it was that they refused to deport Jews to Hitler at one point or another.

Not even Bush suspended civil liberties like Woodrow Wilson did even when we did have a terrorist attack.

And if people want to call Bush a Fascist because of the Patriot Act, Obama is one because he he renewed it and plus, ofcourse he's taking more of the economy to the government like a fascist.

And is Obama Socialistic or Fascistic? He's both, just read history. ^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

I thought Obama was a Muslim? At any rate, I dont htink Obama will be pursuing any of the socialistic or fascist ends sought by Hitler, Mussolini or any other tin-pot dictator. You'll still have your freedom. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 01:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Not when liberals take control of the economy.

Look in dictionary and see the similarities, such owning(GM and Chrysler) and/or regulating the economy. ^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

Please sign your posts with four tildes. Thanks. RaoulDuke 02:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

So there was no freedom during the Clinton error? No freedoms under JFK? NZ, Australia and Japan (post recent election) had no freedoms? Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 02:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, aside there wasn't freedom taken under conservative admins, I'm pointing out that fascism is on the left spectrum not the right. ^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

Well then, what is the extreme right? A brutal theocracy like the Taliban? Sounds about right (mind the pun). I don't think fascism is the exclusive realm of the left. Fascism, in Germany, came about due to the people feeling ripped off by the League of Nations after the first world war. The were demilitarised and gave a lot of land away. Hitler bought into this and instilled an extreme sense of nationalism and patriotism which the people, in their weakest moment, wholeheartedly embraced. Sounds like a right focused trait to me. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 03:16, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

What is the extreme right? Franco, religious dictator of Spain. Abortion clinic bombers. Taliban hate us and we hate them. Beside, there not christian and it seems people liberals show sympathy to terrorists, especially the whole terrorist rights crap.^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

All i am starting to hear from you now is "no true scotsman" arguments. "No thats not us", "No thats not us either" you seem unwilling to accept that there are bad people from BOTH sides and if they are then its "Their not conservatives, their liberals". Sounds like someone else we know. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 03:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow you have actually gotten worse. Allow me to explain Christian ≠ conservative, conservative ≠ Christian. - User = 03:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't like the fact that this site is pointing solely at conservatives when it was progressive liberals who admired it.

I'm just pointing out that fascism derived from progressivism, just plain fact. I didn't say there aren't bad people on both spectrums but this is about fascism not everything radical. The problem I do have is that Winston Churchill admired Mussolini, aswell. But who cares, he's not an american conservative.^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

No body can see your point because you do not know of which you speak. As I explained below fascism is not all authoritarian states. - User = 05:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry a fascis-i mean liberal can't understand all this. But FDR did admire Mussolini and Hitler and Mussolini admired him and Mussolini did say he got ideas from Mr Wilson. ^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

I dont understand your point, far right conservatives in the UK are the neo-nazi BNP. Are they liberals? Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 05:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You are just trolling now. Get a dictionary and look the word fascism up and find out what it actually means. - User = 05:42, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] a very important point that is missing here

A very important point that is missing from your argument is that, for example, Churchill may have been a fan of Mussolini at the beginning when it seemed everything he was doing was above board but ceased when he became a dictator. I dont have the facts in front of me but again, undeniably, Stalin was a ally before he became the mass murdering dictator. After that fact, when it was realised what he had in store, he became the reprehensible monster now remembered in history. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 05:42, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You were referring to Mr Churchill, yeah that sucks that he said that. I don't know if he was a conservative, maybe he was, but it's liberals here who admired fascism. You need to read Liberal Fascism sometime to see what you can dig out.^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

No, I dont need to read it. Please respond to my very important point with your knowledge. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 05:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The book makes the same stupid association fallacies and equivocations you are making. Authoritarianism ≠ fascism, there are many forms of authoritarianism; fascism is a right-wing form. - User = 05:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh Yeah, that's when FDR said something like "I have hunch that Stalin wants nothing but security for his country and if I give him everything and ask for nothing in return, I think he won't annex anymore countries." I think we knew what happen next.

Sounds like modern day liberals being weak on National Security. Like we'll remove part of our missiles and give none to allies and talk with Iran., just when we found out they violated a U.N.(useless liberal org) resolution and found out they have more nuclear facilities and making even more threats towards us now after exposing it. ^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

Again, foolish gentleman, you have missed the point. FDR would said that (sorry I do not have hard facts here and now) around the time of thr Yalta Conference when Stalin was an ally. Since then, he became a communist murderer. Your Iran talk is irrelevant to this particular point. FDR said that during the Yalta conference BEFORE the communist purges and Chirchill admired mussolini in 1933 BEFORE the 2nd world war. A misjudge of character NOT admiration of fascists and commies.Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 05:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

My point was is that he be friended somebody who obviously annexes countries.

Sorry man, I mean not to be aggressive, but you are way out of your depth. I would be interested in having a more indepth discussion however you do not seem to be up to it. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 06:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh... I just noticed that that gray symbol at the upper left corner is suppose to be a brain. I just thought that meant you were a nut, because that's what it looks like.^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

So far we have had association fallacy, equivocation and now ad hominem, do you have an actual argument or just a set of fallacies? - User = 05:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

No... just the fact that part of modern liberalism was derive from fascism.^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

No modern liberalism is derived from classical liberalism, with less emphasis on free markets following the great depression. Marxism and fascism were reactions to modern liberalism. - User = 06:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I can make a watertight argument that because GWB was a good friend of the Saudis that Neo-Conservatism is derived from Islamist theocracies. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 06:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

No. The Saudi King did not get ideas from Bush to be a theocrat like Mussolini admitted to getting ideas from Woodrow Wilson.^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

Have a read of this. It explains that fascism emerged in opposition to liberalism. - User = π 06:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Senseless jibber-jabber

Sorry, I can no longer debate your senseless gibberish. Ace McWicked^{I'm a pretty big deal around here...} 06:32, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

He has read a book and it over stimulated him. If he had read a reliable book we would have been spared this inanity. - User = 06:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Brave hero of conservative values, Donald Rumsfeld, bravely defends America from a brutal liberal/marxist/fascist dictator

[edit] My two cents

I can think of 5 good reasons that liberals are not fascists. German philosopher (and neo-Nazi) Ernst Nolte wrote a book "Fascism in its Epoch," in which he defines "generic fascism." He make 4 points about fascism as an ideology:

1) The purpose of morality is duty to humanity, the physical manifestation of which is the state.

2) The state has no limit to its power, nor should it protect the rights of any individuals.

3) Morality is inherently tied to race and gender, and the only correct form of race relations is Social Darwinism.

4) Marxian communism and other egalitarian systems should be combatted, with extreme violence if necessary.

Obviously none of these apply to Obama when you put them in perspective. Lastly, Nolte characterizes fascism as a kind of "backlash" against modernity, particularly against democracy and egalitarianism. Obama is clearly not the one exhibiting conservative backlash; his opponents are. Tetronian 02:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

"1) The purpose of morality is duty to humanity, the physical manifestation of which is the state."

What can you do in an uncilized society? Communists are clearly leftwing and they do the same social conservatism.

"2) The state has no limit to its power, nor should it protect the rights of any individuals."

Nor do liberals have limits, they wanna change more and more. Then why do fascist nations have public health care if they don't want to protect there citizens? Probably the same reason liberals want public health care, to control.?

"3) Morality is inherently tied to race and gender, and the only correct form of race relations is Social Darwinism.

HAH... Stalins USSR!

"4) Marxian communism and other egalitarian systems should be combatted, with extreme violence if necessary."

Didn't Hitler at one point get along with the USSR until he invaded it? ^{— Unsigned, by: 76.228.209.71 / talk / contribs}

Allow me to explain. Fascism = authoritarianism, but authoritarianism ≠ fascism. There are many ways to be authoritarian, but what distinguishes fascism from say communism is why they are authoritarian. Fascist are a) nationalists and b) corporatists, both are from the right end of the spectrum. Communists are collectivist from the left end of the spectrum. - User = 03:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

"Didn't Hitler at one point get along with the USSR until he invaded it?" - wow, this has been a fun clueless BoN. Hitler cut a deal with Stalin to split Poland and not fight each other, while he pursued other aims (western Yurp). Then he got bored and stupid and attacked Russia. At least you gave me my daily dose of lulz, BoN. ħuman 05:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Something that continues to baffle me: all western and developed countries apart from the United States have some kind of public healthcare system. If public healthcare=fascism that means that the entire western world is fascist. Is there really anybody who would seriously want to claim that? Oh, and if you think the Soviet Union was social darwinist you simply don't know what Social Darwinism means. Social Darwinism and Darwinism are two completely different things. Opposing public healthcare for example is a prime example of Social Darwinism. M the T 21:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)