Essay talk:Abortion debate and open mind

I am also open to criticism over my grammatical errors. --Earthland 16:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The middle ground

Your 'middle ground' section is a load of twaddle

The statement "Abortion is such a complicated issue, anyone who tries to pin such a complex issue down to a black/white solution doesn't understand the issue." is not saying the middle ground is correct. It has no analogy with your middle price comparison. It says that there is no one true valid answer.

To demonstrate a moral dilemma with no 'right' answer consider 'Sophie's choice' - a mother has to choose which of her children has to die. In that situation every answer is wrong, every answer has unacceptable aspects, every answer is problematic. Abortion isn't quite as loose/loose but it is similarly morally ambiguous. It doesn't matter where you draw the line it will be in the wrong place under some circumstances. Every answer to the abortion debate is the wrong one. Any person who tries to pin it down to any one moment, to give a black/white answer to a question which has no black/white answers, doesn't understand the question.

So, when it comes to keeping an open mind, try to realise that, however strongly you hold your views, that's all they are, views. Let your mind be open, appreciate why others disagree, don't just write them off as immoral and/or have an agenda. Doesn't it say anything to you that so many people and organisations disagree, doesn't that give the slightest hint that it's not quite that straightforward? Bob Soles 17:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I could write at least two more sections to my essay based on your comment. You can be sure I will.--Earthland 17:31, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Until you remove the misstatements that are "The Middle Ground" your just polishing a jobbie (Glaswegian phrase for trying to make something bad look good). I know this is in response to my comments on the Talk:Abortion page - it is after all an exact quote - and all it shows is your lack of understanding. Failing to differentiate between saying "There is no answer" and "The middle ground is the answer" shows very poor comprehension. Bob Soles 17:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey Earthland

Have you ever known somebody who has ever had an abortion? Or contemplated one? Or had an unplanned pregnancy? Ŵêâŝêîôîď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 18:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

That has simply so much to do with everything, and I feel myself obliged to point out that the alleged goal of your question is not just other kind of ad hominem, but as an answer, my mother has had an abortion (and as it turned out, her mother and pretty much all of her (and of course, mine) female relatives). That was the first thing that made me think about it, a long time ago. As you may know, Soviet Union was one of the first countries that made the abortion legal.

I guess you wanted to say that life is tough, and I am an evil moralist who has no contact with reality and probably can't even imagine what it looks like and has ever done anything to help the "real" human beings. Am I correct? --Earthland 18:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Partially, but not exactly. You describe your essay as a collection of personal observations, so I was curious as to how close you've been to this issue in real life. That isn't an ad hominem attack. Ŵêâŝêîôîď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 19:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

It's just stirring up a hornets nest but....

Appeal To Consequences

I think this is a missunderstanding of the counter argument. This is presented as

• If life starts at conception
• This would make Abortion baby killing
• Therefore life does not start at conception

This would be far better stated as

• If personhood starts at conception
• This would make Abortion baby killing
• Therefore those who have abortions do not believe that personhood starts at conception

Note I use personhood to define the point where I believe that "life" in terms of becoming a person starts. Not life in terms of the start of the lifecycle.

Point Refuted A Thousand Times

Many, no, make that most, RWians will have thought through and argued the abortion question more than once. When someone arrives with an extreme view and shows no interest in understanding that there may be other valid viewpoints then there is no debate beyond the 'Tis, tisn', tis, tisn't, tis, tisn't....' of the junior playground. This is boring.

Evading or Dodging the Question

Remove the beam from your own eye first.

Using Ad Hominem

Saying that men cannot fully understand the abortion question is not an ad hominem. It is, however, a commonly held view that only a woman can fully understand what it means to give birth and therefore all the issues surrounding it. After all, in the vast majority of cases, it's the woman who is left holding the baby.

Ad Hominen Tu Quoque

Pointing out that many of those who oppose abortion are inconsistent in their views as to the 'sanctity of life' is pointing out that their arguments are flawed. If they believed so strongly in the sanctity of life they would logically have to be pacifists against capital punishment. The fact that they believe so strongly in the sanctity of life only when it applies to abortion implies that it's the abortion that takes precedent, not the sanctity of life.

Middle Ground

This section is totally flawed. There is a massive difference between "There is no answer to the moral dilemma" and "The middle ground is the answer to the moral dilemma".

I don't care

This is not part of the argument, rather it's a reaction to the complexity of the argument. Given that it appears impossible to come to a working consensus as to the moral viewpoint we need to be pragmatic. The pragmatic answer is that women will always have abortions and, given that, it is best to make them as safe as possible, that is, legal. Why then bother to post if we don't care? Because we do care about people who feel they have the right to preach at us.

It's a tough decision - let the woman decide

Writing this off as totally fallacious is not really answering the question. It may appear fallacious to you but you haven't defended that position - just stated it. What it does come back to is the question as to what right you seem to feel you have to make moral judgements over something that doesn't concern you. Until you are a woman facing that decision, then you can make that choice. Until then, why should I bother listening to you.

Bob Soles 15:07, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course

It is nice to see that a guy who actually believes that there is no true answer at all, takes so much time to prove that my answer is wrong. I believe there is truth, but this, however, is another topic to discuss.

I don't answer your whole comment right now, but I wanted to remind you that the word "person" is purely philosophical term. You also lack any credible reference to back up your claim that there is difference between the beginning of the life cycle and the beginning of the life of the new individual human being... While I have presented probably dozens of references. If you define religion as the opinion which has survived (as opinions don't tend to last very long after they are found to blatantly contradict established facts)[1] I might call you religious in this question.

Now to your previous claim: "It is impossible to prove when life begins (in terms of becoming a person".) But if we don’t know when life begins, then we can’t say it has begun at birth, or at age five, or at 50. By this logic, the law could never convict someone for murdering a 30-year-old woman because there is no way to prove that she was alive.

The fact is, no scientific, biological, or medical textbook says that life begins at any point other than conception. There is no difference, biologically, between the beginning of the lifecycle and the beginning of the life. Further, simple deductive reasoning proves that life begins at conception because that is the only time it can begin. Any other point is strictly arbitrary.

“”Although organisms are often thought of only as adults, and reproduction is considered to be the formation of a new adult resembling the adult of the previous generation, a living organism, in reality, is an organism for its entire life cycle, from fertilized egg to adult, not for just one short part of that cycle. (Encyclopedia Britannica: Life-cycle reproduction)

--Earthland 14:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

So, you believe that a woman who has an abortion - and that includes your mother, should spend her life in gaol? Bob Soles 16:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

To expand on my point above - you have made it quite clear that, as far as you are concerned, from the moment of conception there exists a human being with full rights.

• From this it follows that abortion, including using an IUD, is murder - you have said as much in as many words.
• Furthermore it is murder of a human being with full rights as a human being. You make it very clear that you do not differentiate in any way between the rights of a fertilized ovum and a adult, or any of the stages in-between.
• Therefore the punishment for abortion should be the same punishment as that for murder. No two ways about it. It is the killing of another human being. Murder. no excuses, no differentiation, Murder.
• The punishment for murder tends to be quite severe. In many countries it is the death penalty.
• Logically then, you support such severe punishments for those who have abortions.
• And as for those who carry out the abortions, they're mass murderers. They have killed hundreds, thousands, in cold blood without a second thought. Surely no penalty is too severe for them

I don't know how you can face your family when so many have committed such a heinous crime. You come from a family of murderers.

And one final point - as the end of life is defined as the cessation of meaningful brain activity then logically the start of life is defined as the opposite, i.e. the start of meaningful brain activity. That position is just as valid and just as logical as yours.

Bob Soles 17:18, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, evading&dodging the question... and talking about other issues.

First of all, laws prohibiting abortion target the abortionist, not the woman. Why? Well, one answer is that (except in the extremely unlikely event that a woman is actually caught in the act of having an illegal abortion) a conviction would be virtually impossible. Secondly, woman does not herself carry out the procedure, she simply gives her approval, which is not exactly the same thing.

But the most serious reason is that most woman actually don't know what abortion is. They are given the view that doctor removes "something" from her, like taking out the kidney or so. They only know that abortion terminates pregnancy. No matter how much better it sounds, "terminating a pregnancy" is also terminating a life. As Judy Ferris, an atheist woman who had an abortion but became pro-life, said:

“”Believing that the fetus was just a "blob of tissue", that pro-lifers were lying about how developed aborted fetuses are, I had no reason to avoid information from sources that were not "anti-abortion". I learned about fetal development when my other children were born. I experienced nightmares, crying spells and suicidal thoughts. I knew these were not caused by the activities or words of pro-lifers or preachers. Was I supposed to be upset with sonogram technicians or childbirth instructors for educating me?

That's why I think women should not be regarded as "murderers". We should feel sorry for them and help them if they have realized what abortion actually is. Do you think that anyone ever gave my mother an objective overview about abortion? That someone at least told her what kind of methods are going to be used to terminate the life of the embryo - the unborn child?

But can we say the same about the doctors? It's the doctors who tear the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded. Or who use the curette which cuts the baby into pieces that are scraped out through the cervix and discarded. Or who dismember the fetus, snap the spine and crush the skull in order to remove them from the womb.

--Earthland 18:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)