Talk:Lenski affair

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Do not edit, format, or add links to the letters in the article as they are copies of the original documents and should be preserved "as is".

Consequences: Digg

I first found out about this imbroglio from an Ars Technica article Bacteria evolve; Conservapedia demands recount that was Dugg. As of Sun 6 Jul 2008 06:06:48 PM, there were 1237 diggs.

If you do a Google search on "Lenski Conservapedia" there are currently "about 39,500" hits. BlankVerse 21:18, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

I just found the Conservapedia article at reddit.com under the title: "Conservapedia tries to make Prof. Richard Lenski prove his E. Coli experiment is not a fraud. Lenski responds with an extensive smackdown" with 1584 hits. BlankVerse 21:27, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Consolidation

Has there been any thought to consolidating some of the Lenski affair articles? I think it would be better to have fewer rather than more. Sterile^snore! 09:05, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

But, Sterile, just as everyone who arrives here wants to edit the Conservapedia article and the Andrew Schlafly article, right now everyone wants to add some half-brained attempt at another article on Lenski! Oops, I mean, I agree with you. ħuman 01:28, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

(I'm just jealous 'cause I ain't got my own!) Sterile^snore! 08:29, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm not so sure. The do cover different aspects, and one long article would be more difficult to read.--Bob^{bing up} 08:45, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

I guess it reminds be of ... say ... the spawn of Ken's homosexuality articles... Sterile^snore!

Adding letters to Wikisource

I would like to add the letters to Wikisource. Schlafly's emails are in the public domain, since he published them on Conservapedia, but what about Prof. Lenski's? Did anyone ask him if he releases the emails into public domain, or under a license like GNU, or something? I though taht since you know how the actula second reply looked (bold parts) maybe someone had a conversation with him about this matter as well. 84.232.160.175 04:00, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Schlafly's letters are not public domain, they are some confused version of copyright thet even Andy does not understand. I suspect that Prof. Lenski does not mind repeated, infinite even, copying of his sublime prose. The bolding, etc., was in his originals. ħuman 04:03, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Actually of what I understand from this page is that I may copy content without specifying the source. Though the second part (This license is revocable only in very rare instances of self-defense, such as protecting continued use by Conservapedia editors or other licensees or stopping unauthorized copying or mirroring of entire parts of this site.) doesn't make much sense. If anyone copies the content and does harm to Conservapedia, then there's not much they can do - the content was already released under this public-domain-ish license.

About Prof. Lenski's, I thought as much that he has nothing against these being widely spread (especially because of this: "I expect you to post my response in its entirety; if not, I will make sure that is made publicly available through other channels"), but as you might know Wikimedia is very strict with copyright. An explicit permission from the professor would be great. 84.232.160.175 04:42, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

I have not corresponded with Prof. Lenski but it is my understanding that others have, and from all reports he seems a quite responsive sort of chap. I see that his e-mail is available on his web page - you might wish to simply ask him directly.--Bob^{bing up} 05:27, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Belatedly - yes, I sent him a random "congratulations, no need to reply" email a couple weeks ago and he even replied to that with a quick "thank you". 84bunch, I'm sure if you emailed him he would reply with explicit permission. So go for it! ħuman 18:58, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

CP's letter to PNAS

This cannot be a serious attempt on their part. They must realize, even in the back of that reptilian sized brain that they are not experts in any science, much less this specific field of microbiology... and that any attempt they make to PNSA will come off as either mearly a joke or another chance to be ridiculed around the world while so-called "Darwinists" get another chance to say "haha"(think - Nelson from Simpsons). This has to just be self-important, self-focused ego fluff that will never be actually mailed.--WaitingforGodot 18:05, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I removed the part that said they took it seriously, I think - it was just speculation. As it is, it may still not get sent. ħuman 18:56, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

$10 to the charity of your choice if it ever gets sent.   ^Contribs_Talk 18:59, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Just noting the source of the letter might raise a few chuckles amongst the recipients (should it ever be sent).Speakerface 20:34, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for formatting the letter on the page. I added it, but then I had a lot of trouble getting it to look good. I just cannot believe that they are going to send it. I just can't believe it. I want to see the response they get.EricB 20:42, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

You're welcome, thanks for bringing it over. It wasn't hard to fix, just remember that leading spaces do weird things in MW. ħuman 21:04, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I blagged on this; this is better than the Daily Show-caius (soldier) 21:10, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Only Monty Python or the Marx Brothers (and maybe George Carlin) could make this stuff up... ħuman 21:55, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I have to say, I do find it endlessly telling that Andy pushes this letter off to his acolytes. Telling them, in effect "well, I won't send it, but if you all want to, you can". Of course he knows that he is full of shit. but he can't let his minions know that he's full of shit. he'd never send this letter, but if it were sent by others, "that would be fine". He's also set up (for his acolytes) a win-win. "if they don't respond, well we all know what that means. If they do own up to the errors, then good for them. and if they try to dismiss us, well, that just shows they are part of the liberal science liers". --WaitingforGodot 09:56, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Ok, who wrote [1]? I really don't know which I would prefer: a) Schlafly ignores Stitch75's advice and PZ Myers posts about a crass incompetent piece of garbage posted without regard to the advice of those who evidently know what they are talking about or b) Aschlalfy takes the advice and gets humiliated in PNAS. The danger in the second is that he might try and word a decent objection, find he can't and drop the whole thing. "Of course he knows that he is full of shit.". Does he? Are you not arguing from the position that you would, from the position that you would have to be a raving madman, at least borderline clinically paranoid, to really actually believe what you would be saying and the "yes men" agreeing with you? Its that problem of teaching something that you are really good at: it's just so difficult thinking yourself into the position of someone who finds it hard: you have, as a sane person, difficulty imagining yourself gibbering like Andy. You wouldn't send the letter to PNAS, but then you wouldn't have sent the second letter to Lenski. You wouldn't have sent the first! Trust in Schalfly's idiocy, it hasn't let you down yet. --Toffeeman 15:56, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Here's teh thing. If he *really* belived he had a point, he'd jump at the chance to submit that letter. Right now, all he is saying is "well, they won't post it anyhow" and "I write only for people here at CP" and "if they want to know the Truth, they know where to find it" tripe. That's the kind of distancing himself that happens when there is an inner war. --WaitingforGodot 16:11, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Could it be akin to Gollum's spark of decency? There is Schalfly the malevolent, paranoid, egomaniac; the intellectually degenerate pustule of a human being hiding in the roots of the mountains jealously guarding his "precious" wiki. But, unremarked by the conscious mind, there remains a tiny little piece of the original Schlafly. This piece remembers all the kids laughing at the stupid remarks, remembers the red ink through the grammatical errors, the evil-lutionists jeers, the scorn and the ridicule. This piece remains sane and it struggles, struggles against the now-dominant madman. It can never reveal itself, if it does the madness will crush it utterly, but it tries and twists and pokes and prods to try and limit the damage the madman does. "well, they won't post it anyhow" is the sane Andy, the Andy too scared to say "for fucks sake mad-Andy, if you send it we'll look like a complete twat". Watch out for Andy starting to say "we", "us" and "our", and maybe going on about the "nasty, tricksy" parodists.--Toffeeman 08:27, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Oh, I hope he sends it. It would be perhaps the greatest moment of my life. I hope they honor conservapedia with a response. Does Lenski know about this? EricB 16:07, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

As I said on the WIGO talk page, writing an article comment is not writing a letter to the editor of a newspaper. They should have citations to the literature, and it will be peer reviewed (or more likely, rejected outright by the editor) as it is part of the scientific literature. If the grammar's bad, that's even worse. Sterile^snore! 16:14, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

I'll cheer them on, to see them send it. in Andy's name, of course... And if he does send it in, i would hope that the people at PNAS do bother to reply, demanding as they would for any of thier contributors, in bright red ink, "citation please" "source please" "where is your data to support this".--WaitingforGodot 16:22, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

It's getting painful to watch. Stitch75 has been trying to advise Andy on how to word the letter, he has expertise. His reward is a block threat [2]. Meanwhile Andy just laps up the parodists [3] what does it take for this man to learn? Why does he absolutely insist on making a complete and utter tit of himself, even to the extent of attacking those who are trying to ensure he keeps some shred of dignity? I almost feel sorry for him. --Toffeeman 08:04, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Actually i am absolutely sure Stitch75's real intention is not to ensure some dignity for Mr. Schlafly. I think it's more likely that he is seeking to inflict the maximum embarassment to Mr. Schlafly, which obviously would be that after a painful open, embarassing revision process in which Mr. Schlafly demonstrates his incompetence every five lines, the letter is turned down in an horribly well defined way, without any chance to silence the opponent or change the text any more. --Lilo57 15:37, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Fascinating. They count words already..... --124.85.78.182 04:41, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

Mr Schlafly's letter WAS sent to PNAS and is currently under review. See http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Letter_to_PNAS :-) 67.72.98.45 15:18, 9 September 2008 (EDT)

New Scientist comment

Don't know if this has been brought up anywhere. It's a New Scientist ref to CP. It's old news so I suppose it's somewhere on here.   ^Contribs_Talk 13:16, 18 August 2008 (EDT)